birrhan

It's got KSPX; I need a 4x1.25 connector. It also has Engineer for the statistics. That's it. Your craft doesn't have the dv necessary for eve (6404 by my measurement--absolute minimum is 9000, 10,000 for some cushion, 11,500 for sea level). The craft are actually fairly divergent--your weight and thrust distribution are off of mine. One of the reasons I made that overslung asparagus up top was to maximize dv; like I mentioned, it gets 3 kerbals over 6600 dv (currently) on 60 tons, and each stage would be TWR 1.4 or greater on Eve, could I get there. I remade it with a lower COG on the top half, still pitches. I've got 8 LV45s on the bottom now. It's a weight, and COG/COL issue, not a gimballing issue. For whatever reason the COL is WAY below the COG, but I don't know how to fix that and maintain the high TWR to lift off Eve. I think it needs a launcher. You know, capable of lifting 350 tons. This whole thing is a cluster****. Like I said at the beginning--it won't fly itself into space (too unwieldy), it won't tolerate a lander (too heavy), so for now it's a great theoretical vehicle and that's about it. Currently, this is the list of things I've tried: -Lv45s (gimballing): pitches between 6000 and 25000 meters -lander cans up top: pitches -massive RCS spamming: not enough force to stop the pitch -and of course, large launchers (unstable as holy hell) So I am fresh out of ideas. This is my most recent iteration (KSPX and Engineer only mods required): https://www.dropbox.com/s/nse4ljdrlk8mnf8/Sisyphus%20Core.craft

Alright, gimbals aren't helping me. In fact, it's pitching over worse than before. here's the craft: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvntq08v79sqxwo/KSS%20Sisyphus%20Lander.craft

Oh, it's not possible in one stage. That's the catch, it needs to be wired to stage and yield 10500, but as an SSTO it'll get around 5000. The trick is to keep the TWR above one in that configuration. Remember, it's supposed to be an Eve lander and return vehicle. That said, the core stage, as an SSTO, will get around 4500.

Thanks. What kind of dv are you getting? Should be around 10500. I'll post the craft file in a bit. I've built several versions in the 350 ton range. I feel like the .LV45s are basically interchangeable, i just need the clearance for the landing gears. The pitching always gets bad when the outer stages are spent,so I'd put them on the inner ring. Build it right and the core stage should get you 6500 dv in 60 tons.

I have had poor luck building a launcher with multi-point attachments to the lander. If you have a central core and 4 peripheral tanks (attached however you like), then build up to a lander, the peripherals on the lander won't attach to the center--the game can't handle attachments at multiple points in parallel. it looks like you've integrated your launcher and lander/payload, so that's a non issue. I would LOVE to do this. Aerospikes don't stage, btw. Mounting the aerospikes radially will only distribute weight away from vertical, which will worsen the problem I'd think. Also, there's precious little room there. Please don't be condescending. I asked for a "how to" not a "why not". For the record, I've logged 430 hours (about 3/4 of which I've spent in the VAB building things that don't fly), and landed a 3 man pod on every body in the Kerbol system--and returned them to Kerbin--EXCEPT for Eve. That's what this is for. From that perspective, you might understand why you appeared to be condescending. With that in mind, can you add materially to the discussion? Thank you. I'll try that. just tried. Didn't work. Got it into a gravity turn OK, but then around 20k it started bobbing around like a cork:

it is something of an odd request. Here is the craft: Technically it has enough dv to get into orbit. But the COM and COT are on top of each other, so when it comes times to gravity turn, this happens (note we are going east but pointed west, Kerbal style): So I slapped some rockets on the thing (you can see that above), and it just accelerated the failure. Then I thought to add a gas tank, up top, to shift COM above COT, like so: The thing never ever ever ever flies true, not even to start. It seems to want to follow the prograde indicator, as if ASAS isn't engaged (it is); I actually have much better luck flying it manually. The traditional "stick the thing on top of a bunch of orange tanks" launcher clocks in at 1800 parts and, further, blows up upon physics initiation at the launch pad, prior to ignition: Before: After: So, a simple request: how do I get this craft into a stable 100 x 100 km orbit? Empty fuel tanks are OK; staging is not--craft must be SSTO, but anything can be added to get it there.

Well, DaveofDefeat, I am impressed. Flew this thing last night and it went up mostly without a hitch. I might rename it to "USS Rickety_Bucket"--I didn't notice much lag on my end, but it does flex like a paper airplane in a gale. It achieves 90x120 orbit with about 7 orange tanks of fuel, which is about what I can do with a more rigid craft at 1300 parts, so well done there. Engineer says that it has the dv to lift 350 tons or so, so I tried bracing it and putting an Eve-capable lander on top of it (at 320 tons), and it generally falls apart on the launchpad, before ignition. But then, even modded launchers are failing me for that craft.

I was launching an 1800 part monstrosity (Eve lander at 350 tons and associated Kerbin Launch vehicle), and in 0.19 it was taking at least 10 minutes to get to 25,000 m (where it would slowly disintegrate), but last night I got there in moderately less time--less than 10 minutes, more than 5. Sorry I didn't document the time, it hadn't occurred to me to measure that as a variable between versions. 2500k, 8GB RAM, 1 GB GeForce 560Ti, windows 7. Still, that time is made up when I select "end flight", and then the screen gets all frozen and non responsive and spends 2-5 minutes thinking about spitting you back out to the VAB--and I really do mean it's thinking, because alt-tabbing to, say, chrome to ride out that time will force back to KSP every 5-10 seconds. It's quicker to close the game and restart from Windows.

Praise the Kraken!! Thank you so freaking much! Now to play the waiting game.... until I can get home and try these out.

Launched. Crashed. then waited 2 minutes while the log screen thought about going to the VAB or the space center or restarting, and being forced to stare at it waiting, as any time I'd alt-tab to another window (chrome) it would force me back, as if it had finally made a decision but, nope, still thinking. I suspect this is a problem with playing in Windowed mode. Still trying to launch something into orbit using the new bits. It does seems smoother however, when I'm not crashing rockets.

I built a lander that has a reasonable chance of getting three kerbals off Eve. And it weighs only 320 tons! Gonna need a bigger rocket.... Here's the juicy bit, the last stage, getting 3789 dv out of 28 tons:

I believe that's the mantra of the kerbal rocket builder: "I am never touching (planetary body or orbital maneuver) again!", which immediately precedes a breakthrough. Jeb knows I've done it. was this from Eve sea level? Would slapping on 10 or so SRBs help?

Thanks to everyone, tavert amd CoriW in particular, for the insight and suggestions. I like the weight on the X3--very curious to try it out. Gonna have to be a bit though. Thank you.

I didn't ask for a hint, I asked for a spoiler. Please stop patronizing me. I asked a very pointed question, you're ignoring it, so be it. You have that right, but don't expect me to be happy about it. For the record, after, oh, 100 hours of tinkering on just Eve, I effing give up--and I believe that is warranted. I cannot get a craft to eve with sufficient dv to get off the surface, and when I get close the parachutes rip free because it's aspargussed 6 ways to sunday. On the plus side, I'm also finding a clever trick with vertical asparagusing and two aerospikes that give in the neighborhood of 3500-4000 dv on the last stage, which kind of beats the crap out of anything the LVNs can offer, for a weight of less than 20 tons. So much for the sanctity of NERVA. But then, I don't have a frame of reference for atmospheric conditions getting out of Eve, and at what altitude I can drop high thrust engines. The rest.... is where I need the help. I would really like to see if it's possible to get 10,000 dv with TWR >1.2 for each stage (out of atmo at least) for less than 200 tons. I can get a 200 ton lander into orbit, with room to spare. Are you familiar with pedagogies? I learn visually. I need to see the picture of what you're talking about. No more socratic method. No more teacher/student. I've logged 370 hours in 2 months on this game. It is all encompassing. moreso, I have a fair grasp of things. Enough so that I am asking this as a peer, not a student. Just work with me. or don't, but at least don't patronize.

You have no idea how upset I am right now. From my perspective, I see "oh, that's cool, but not good enough. you'll need to do better." Elaborate on better, please. I need a picture of your lander; these vague "oh, use LVN in your upper stage" mean NOTHING to me. Pics. or links. Text is useless--it says nothing about the totality of how your lander is constructed. you are likely forgetting things that you don't even think to include, that are critical. If you're intent on being helpful, please abide: pics or links ONLY.

UPDATE: 9500 dv achieved on less than 200 tons. Can you do better?

Appreciated, but seriously, I'm kind of sick of the "dude, you're overthinking it....." answers. I get it. it's a problem. Improve on it, or else you're not really adding to the conversation. This is kerbal science. We demand evidence. And explosions. but also evidence.

I've been having several problems with Eve. My first is with the forum: "eve" is too short a word to search, so "all these threads" about Eve landers aren't searchable. That said, I'm trying to get a 3 man command pod down and back, and the lowest weight I can get for a reasonable dv (9300) is 589 tons: I saw some very lovely pictures of vertical asparagus staged rockets weighing in around 28 tons, that you put a couple ladders on and have your Kerbals hold on to for dear life. During an ascent. out of the atmosphere. At many thousand of meters per second. A more realistic approach using an mk1 can get out for ~50 tons. Why does it take so much more to get the extra 3 tons back home???? That's mildly rhetorical. This thread should contain ONLY (a) links to other threads on 3 kerbal manned return mission to Eve, and ( images of stock Eve landers/return vehicles for a mk3 capsule, including approximate dv. I'm kind of tired of circling around the problem and talking about concepts without anything specific. So let loose with your specifics--show me your landers! Or improve on mine.

Dude, I'm in the exact same boat. I'm trying to get the 3 man command pod down and back, and the smallest I've made a 9500 dv vehicle is 579 tons. It is easy enough to get it into orbit around Kerbin. What's killing me is the weight--when I test the parachutes on kerbin the whole thing falls apart--too much stress, and the asparagus staging is refractory to stability. Frustrating, since that is ostensibly the easiest thing about Eve--the landing.

Indeed. but it's UGLY. All kidding aside, I really want to put the command pod down. A "down and back". Like this one (that exploited the terrain going to 11000 m): Also, how in the seven hells are you getting the fuel lines around the decoupler? For me, it always wants to connect to the decoupler.

So I'm trying just that, and the fuel doesn't register between stages. No transfer is possible: Incidentally, pictures of all these rigs would help IMMEASURABLY.

Go on.... Seriously, not to derail the discussion, but I am very curious about attempts to get a 3 person craft to Eve's surface and back. Most trips are 1 Kerbal trips. I've been trying to use Engineer to predict dv on Eve, and the best I can do about 180 tons at 8000 dv or so. Is there a link for that?

Damn. I remember a book that looked a lot like Foss' stuff, back around '89 or so. That was inspiring. Had several alien spacewrecks towards the end (a la Alien). Good stuff. Definitely an element of that sense of exploration from his work in Kerbal, if not the actual colors or forms. I feel like the ad hoc nature of a lot of our ships reflect the built-to-purpose sense of Foss' (in that form reflects what a ship is built for, and much less for aesthetics). Generally.

Well THAT'S your problem. But seriously, delete all the 6-fold symmetry RCS ports. The only way to ever do RCS--EVER--is 4-fold symmetry. Also, go back to the VAB, separate the lifter stage, and toggle the center of mass on your orbital craft--then put a ring of 4 RCS ports (1x4 fold symmetry) around the green center of mass ball. Also make sure to add monoprop to your craft--you can never have too much when you're learning. If that whole thing is your orbital craft (yikes!) go small first--just stick with the top bit. Did you try to mess with the nodes at all? Nodes just predict a course for you--you're not committed to it until you re-orient your craft and hit the gas. I cannot stress this enough. Just try to use nodes to lines the orbits up more or less together. Practice this, and I'll try to recreate your craft when I get home and show you what I mean about the RCS ports (funny enough, there's lots of threads about it but NO PICTURES). This is the closest I could get:

I saw that map, thanks. It looks like you could place a node at one of the two points where the circles cross nearest each other, and drag the blue arrows until your projected orbits get close. Start there, and post a picture of the result. If you're confident, try to perform the burn that the node calculates for you: it will put a blue cross on the navball and a gauge to the right of the navball that has ### m/s, and below that will be a time--when the timer is finished, you need to be aiming at the blue cross (the direction you need to aim), and burn engines till the gauge reads almost zero (the gauge is the amount of thrust you need to add in that direction). I strongly recommend uploading your craft file too, so we can see how your RCS ports are placed and how they behave. Even a screenshot of the craft would help.