seanth

Cool. You're on. I'm probably going to limit myself to a general kind class of design, though. My exercise in boat building is to figure out ways of transporting heavy loads across water. For example: So all my current ships have a similar design scheme (retractable wheels for pick up/delivery onland, etc). Having said that, I'm excited to see what I can squeeze out of these guys.

Love it, Ezriilc. I can see I'm going to have to improve on my designs and see if I can squeeze more speed out of my ships. Seeing as how I only had 2 normal jet engines, I think there is room for improvement.

Will fix that tomorrow. To risk derailing the intent of this topic, I agree 100%. The minor problem I have had with some previous cartographic naming exercises on the forums is, well...the game is about rockets. I feel like it's a little to easy to pick a location, hop into a rocket or a plane, go there, and name it. It's a completely different (and from my perspective, incredibly satisfying) experience to get to a location with a boat or a ground vehicle. You see so much more, and really get to appreciate the area you are going through. When I was driving across the Kamm isthmus (wtf, I gave it a name and I'm going to keep using it), it was a huge pain in the ass, but it was also sort of exciting. Finding a path through that terrain was _hard_, and when I managed to find a path, there was a thrill of success. Sure, it's just a game, but when I reached the ocean again, I really felt like I had gotten a sense for the terrain I had just crossed. I'm not sure you can get that level of appreciation if you are in a jet just passing over the terrain. For that reason, I (selfishly) feel like terrain features should be named by people that have taken the slow route and really passed through it vs over it. tl;dr: the people doing the drives to location X, the polar expedition folks, and the naval circumnavigators rule.

To start things off, I'll submit two versions of a craft I previously used to circumnavigate the planet. First up, Drake's Passage: Speed: 51.0m/s Mass: 73.78t (73,780kg) Momentum score: 3,762,780 kg*m/s Second, (retroactively named)Too Many Pancakes. Too Many Pancakes is exactly the same ship design as Drake's Passage, but still has full tanks of oxidizer, making it much heavier. Speed: 39.4m/s Mass: 108.83t (108,830kg) Momentum score: 4,287,902 kg*m/s I have to say I didn't expect Too Many Pancakes to beat Drake's Passage.

There have been challenges to build the fastest boat, and there have been heavy lift rocket challenges. Welcome to the boat momentum challenge, where the total mass of your craft, multiplied by its speed (kg*m/s, or momentum) is your score. Arguably, building a very heavy AND fast boat is harder than building a very light and fast boat, so let the kerbalizing begin! Records: Ezriilc -- []PMV Kolossus --- 30,076,328 Ns Seanth --- Major Strangways --- 24,267,090 Ns Ezriilc --- PMV Kolossus 24MNs --- 24,009,000 Ns* Seanth --- Striking Kaiser --- 15,532,728 Ns Ezriilc --- Water Speed 288 --- 15,484,480 Ns* Seanth --- The Vasa --- 8,716,351 Ns* Ezriilc --- Water Speed X2 --- 8,157,064 Ns* Seanth --- Too Many Pancakes --- 4,287,902 Ns* Seanth --- Drake's Passage --- 3,762,780 Ns* Submission Guidelines Please include images or video of: 1.) The boat being transported to the water (see below). 2.) The boat moving through liquid at that speed. 3.) The craft's mass has to be shown. Rules: Pretty much the same as the Build the fastest boat challenge. -Boats need to travel from their launch point--be it the spaceplane runway or the rocket launch site--to the water rather than be moved to the water using a tool such as Hyperedit. You can use a disposable transport craft if you like, but the mass to be used in the score should be for the boat alone. -The craft must be carrying at least one Kerbal. -No mods, save file edits or non stock parts. The exceptions to this are the inclusion of a single MechJeb or k-OS part. You can also use the Tec Fuel balancer utility. Really, anything can be installed as long as it's not adding parts or altering how parts work. -Use of the debug toolbar is strictly not allowed. -New submissions should be made in the latest version of KSP. *Note: There was a minor change to the rules on 2013-10-09 which required people to taxi their craft into the water and not magically transport them there using editors like Hyperedit. Craft submissions before the rule change are grandfathered in. Note #2: In the end the two leading designs hit on modular formats that would just allow for the addition of more and more weight. If the challenge ever gets revived, I suggest that the scoring be calculated as (mass*velocity)/(# of parts)

I've been thinking about cost of transport a lot recently(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_transport and http://www.neodymics.com/Images/EPPaper080229E.pdf). I was hoping someone could sanity check this for me: If COT=P/(m*g*v), where P=power (joules/s, where a joule(J) is N*meter), m=mass(kg), g=acceleration of gravity (9.81m/s^2), and v=velocity(m/s) And P=0.5*F*Isp*g, where F= force (in kN), Isp is the specific impulse of an engine, and g is the acceleration of gravity (9.81m/s^2) Then if you used two basic jet engines to power a kerbal car that weighed 1 metric ton(=1000kg) and reached a maximum sustained velocity of 50m/s, and using thrust (100kN)and Isp(7282s. I think Isp in KSP is by weight?) values for those jet engines, the COT calculation would be (sorry for showing all the steps): COT=P/(m*g*v) COT=2*(0.5*F*Isp*g)/(m*g*v) COT=2*(0.5*100kN*7282*9.81m/s^2)/(1000kg*9.81m/s^2*50m/s) COT=(100000N*7282s*9.81m/s^2)/(9810N*50m/s) COT=(981000J/s^2*7282s)/(9810N*50m/s) COT=(7143642000J/s)/(490500J/s) COT=14564(unitless) Am I doing anything supremely dumb here?

How about a category that takes mass into account? As in, not just m/s, but kg*m/s? In my experience it's easier to make small, light craft go quickly on water, but much harder to make a heavy craft travel quickly. At that point we're getting into cost of transport, which is something real-world vessel designers consider.

Is there a way to designate a resource as being hidden from the player? In the specific example I am thinking of, there is an intermediate used in converting one resource to another that is necessary to make the conversions like what's seen in the real world, but the intermediate is useless to the player.

I think I named more locations after your circumnavigation than any others: Northern Isthmus: Kamm (Kerbies_are_my_minions) Two islands in that northern sea: North Dig and South Dig (named after your ship) Reefs near the Strait of Zakka: Russel's reef and Kai's reef (named after your Kerbal crew) I should sit down and make a text file that says where names came from. Want to name some others? https://raw.github.com/seanth/Kerbin-map/ I need to sit down and incorporate other common names and ones from the Kerbin Geographic and Science Society.

I am slightly confused by the ISSO. Is it actually talking about the science of KSP, or is it roleplaying? If the former, please accept the following thoughts concerning gas densities: -------------------- Abstract: The units in KSP are often poorly defined, so to try to get a handle on gas densities in the game, we'll examine the density of a stock gas, compare it to a real world equivalent, and extend that logic to other plugins. The stock ion drive engines make use of a gas called "xenon". In the real world, there is a noble gas called xenon, but are these gasses the same? Xenon (Xe) in the real world has an atomic number of 54. So one mole of Xe is 54g. Squad's ResourcesGeneric.cfg lists the density of Kerbal Xenon (kXe) as 0.0001. Without units, we're a bit lost, but it's clear that Xe and kXe are a bit off. But what if what the Kerbals call Xenon is an element we have in our own world? To make our lives easier, we can limit the options to our noble gasses. From that, it seems like the element we call Helium is what the Kerbals call Xenon. One mole of Helium (He) is 2g. The simplistic conversion from real world moles of He to kXe would be to take the real world moles and divide it by 10,000, or 2/10000=0.0002. Pretty close. I mean, this isn't rocket science. Right? How do some other plugins compare? Let's start with the Kethane plugin. If we assume Kethane is the equivalent of our world's methane (CH4), the calculation is fairly straight forward. C(12)+4H(4x1)=12+4=16g. So the estimated kethane density would be 16/10,000=0.0016. The kethane resources.cfg reports that kethane's density is 0.002. Looks good, taking rounding into account. What about IonCross and the BioMass plugin? Both of these plugins provide O2 and and CO2 resources. How do these compare? Real world O2: O(16)x2=32g. Estimate density in plugin: 0.0032 Real world CO2: C(12)+O(16x2)=12+32=44g. Estimate density in plugin: 0.0044 IonCross CrewSupport and Biomass report both O2 and CO2 densities as 0.0004. If one ignores the fact that the estimate and the actual values are off by a factor of 10, the values are fairly close. Conclusions: The appearance of Xenon and Kethane in the stock game and a popular plugin hint that there is some conscious conversion from our world into KSP in regards to gasses. The O2 and CO2 densities in both IonCross CrewSupport and Biomass plugins have values that are very close to estimates from real world values. It suggests that IonCross made a minor calculation error that was perpetuated by other plugins. It could also jus be a wild coincidence.

There's a powerCurve for solar panels, and atmosphereCurves and velocityCurves for engines. Is there an existing temperatureCurve so that we could make parts that stop operating/operate poorly as the temp gets too high or too cold? I ask specifically in relation to a greenhouse-like part I have in mind where it would be important to keep it within a thermal optima for it to work correctly. I suspect this does not currently exist. -STH

I've been thinking about a greenhouse-like part for a while and am just starting to get to know the part schema. I am slightly confused by a ModuleGenerator's requiresAllInputs setting. What I would like to be able to define some resource that is absolutely needed, but then have a series of optional resources. Is this possible?

So...I found myself wanting signs that I could attach to tanks and ships and such. They are just re-textured and resized OX-STAT solar panels. Right now, to make a sign, you need to open a photoshop template I have and type in your text. I was sort of hoping some enterprising soul would set up a web site where you could enter the desired size, text orientation, and text, and the site would spit out the desired sign. Sort of like the Fairing Factory.

I'm really interested in applying this to circumnavigations to Kerbin with boats. I completed one circumnavigation as a way of testing boat designs and automation using Mechjeb, but was not really satisfied with its ability to hold a course using the space plane guidance panel (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/25016-In-search-of-Ferdinand-Magellan?p=657141&viewfull=1#post657141). The rover controls look like exactly what I want as far as targeting a lat/long and updating course direction during the flight to stay pointed at a target vs just holding a heading. I haven't done anything in k-OS yet, but I'm slightly concerned that the rover steering won't work with rudder steering structures. If rudders work with rover steering through k-OS, then it'd be fairly easy to control jet engine throttle based on distance to target.

Yeah, I'd love to see and/or hear your trip report. I'm also 100% willing to help in advising or whatever. When you make your trip, consider naming some of the features you pass by/over: https://github.com/seanth/Kerbin-map

Excellent question. I'm considering a garden, but using the photovoltaic mechanic.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoinhibition for more info.

I know I said "solar panel", but the underlying idea is how to model photosynthetic life that evolved around the orbit of Jool. Anything that evolved to photosynthesize that far away from the sun would have peak efficiency where it evolved. Closer to the sun or further away would see decreases in activity.

That one is Photoshop. I'll put a png up in a minute. Edit: ok. png is up.

Another idea: use a high quality map of Kerbin to talk about geography/geology. My son is learning about various land forms and we're using a map of Kerbin to identify and label various land forms. https://github.com/seanth/Kerbin-map

Maybe have her do some research to explain what is biologically wrong with how the Bio Fuels mod works? Plants not only produce O2, but use it to stay alive (just like animals). So plants do light+CO2+water-->sugar+O2, but they also do sugar+O2-->CO2+energy. They produce more O2 than CO2 in the light, but in the dark, they consume O2. This can then lead to discussions of endosymbiosis and the organelles in plants and/or animals. Oh, and how it would be hand to convert real biomass into a noble gas (xenon) You can put this into perspective of a space mission by talking about eclipses, deep space missions, or slow orbits around a big gas giant (and then you and she can watch "Silent Running" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running).

A plea for a relaxation of the rules for boats/cars: Several of us have circumnavigated Kerbin with a boat/overland vehicle. The very long times it requires to cross the oceans is made bearable by using something like mechjeb of k-OS. Maybe have a special category when if you stay below a certain hight, you can use mechjeb? See this thread for the other circumnavigators: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/25016-In-search-of-Ferdinand-Magellan?p=657141&viewfull=1#post657141

Official 3rd! Stats Ship Name: Francis Drake Total time: 24:38:41 Staging: no Refueling: no Stock parts: yes Utilities: Mechjeb, TAC Fuel Balancer Distance traveled: 3,777.16 km Average speed (excluding travel over the isthmus): 64.145m/s (230.9km/hr) Average speed (total): 59.38m/s (213.78km/hr) Overall map of the trip, complete with locations named after the circumnavigators I'm aware of: Close up of the overland (Isthmus of Kamm) passage: Video of the trip, condensed into about five minutes (1 screenshot/10 seconds; 30 frames/second video) I'm really curious whether the previous circumnavigators found the terrain on the isthmus as rough as I did. I guess there was a terrain update recently? My craft really hated inclines greater than about 10°, which necessitated taking a very indirect route, finding gentle inclines and generally sticking to the tops of hills. For those considering replicating the challenge, I highly recommend using mechjeb or k-OS. There are huge stretches of time where the craft just crosses open water, which is pretty darned boring. My trip can be replicated using the following coordinates (named locations are on the first map): 1.) KSC to Point of Theriss: 4° 28' 21" S, 39° 24' 47" W. Approximately 363 km 2.) Point of Theriss to North Dig Island: 29° 7' 42" N, 19° 38' 15" E. Approximately 650.9 km. 3.) North Dig Island to NE of William's Point: 47° 29' 39" N, 58° 35' 50" E. Approximately 356 km 4.) NE of William's Point to West side of the Isthmus of Kamm: 47° 36' 39" N, 68° 56' 28" E. Approximately 71.9 km 5.) The Isthmus of Kamm has lakes and requires a very twisty route. See the Drake's passage map above for a rough route. Especially note that you don't go to the westernmost end of the westernmost lake (let's call it "Lake Backtrack"). Approximately 143.3 km (not linear) 6.) Eastern side of the Isthmus of Kamm to Russell's reef: 8° 25' 55" S, 149° 38' 39" E. Approximately 743.24 km. This is the longest unbroken stretch 7.) Russell's reef to an unnamed point south of the Strait of Zakku: 16° 22' 16" S, 155° 42' 15" E. Approximately 125.3 km. Be careful of Inattention Island; I nearly plowed into it. 8.) Unnamed point south of the Strait of Zakku to unnamed point SE of Kai's reef: 22° 6' 47" S, 173° 41' 14" E. Approximately 182.2 km. 9.) Unnamed point SE of Kai's reef to Cape Bestimate: 24° 57' 40" S, 138° 44' 22" W. Approximately 441.5 km. If you are like me, you're doing a fair amount of math to see if you'll actually make it. 10.) Cape Bestimate to Seanth's Landing: 20° 37' 44" S, 124° 1' 58" W. Approximately 145.3 km. Hey. I named all the other places after other players that have (or tried) circumnavigating, their ships, or their Kerbal crew. 11.) Seanth's Landing to Kerbal City's Bay: 9° 12' 38" S, 82° 40' 4" W. Approximately 428.5 km. 12.) Kerbal City's Bay to KSC: 0° 50' 43" S, 73° 33' 17" W. Welcome home. I'm sure my coordinates can be improved on, as I wasn't really shaving the corners of things. Of note: I really encourage an expedition to the east side of the Isthmus of Kamm. There is something really odd going on under the water there. Could just be a render glitch, or it could be a series of under water anomalies. You can see the regular outlines under the water at http://www.kerbalmaps.com A note about my craft: the observant viewer of the video will note I use two of the orange Rockomax Jumbo-64 fuel tanks. Unfortunately, there's just nothing as big as them for liquid fuel. I dumped the oxidizer using the fuel balancing mod to reduce my overall weight before I left the runway. I considered editing the tanks to remove the oxidizer or even replacing it with liquid fuel (since they seem to have the same density), but I wanted to keep the craft's parts stock (with the exception of a mechjeb controller).

Ok. Please see above.

I was reading http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/38408-Rotating-solar-panels-(Unity-configuration) and I think I understand how the solar panel's powercurve section works. What's not clear to me is whether one can make a panel that works best at a certain distance from the sun. For example, a panel the works best in Laythe's distance from the sun, but as you get closer to the sun, it is less effecient. Ditto if you move further away out, beyond Laythe's orbit. Would that be something like: #key=<distance from sun> <multiplier> <optional#1> <optional#2> powerCurve { key = 206000000000 0 0 0 #distance from sun it stops working key = 13599840256 0.5 0 0 #Kerbin distance key = 68773560320 1.0 0 0 #Jool key = 0 0 0 0 #Sun } }