TD Industries Orion bits [Alpha]

[Nothalogh]

So, something seems odd about this, with the 86f setup I built a craft with a TWR of about 2.

But it loses all meaningful acceleration by about 900m altitude, while the pulse delivers 2G, the vehicle loses velocity.

Is KSP calculating the G-Forces on the plate and not the main vehicle?

[TiktaalikDreaming]

2 hours ago, Nothalogh said:

So, something seems odd about this, with the 86f setup I built a craft with a TWR of about 2.

But it loses all meaningful acceleration by about 900m altitude, while the pulse delivers 2G, the vehicle loses velocity.

Is KSP calculating the G-Forces on the plate and not the main vehicle?

The g-forces are calculated on the vessel. The pusher plate is just an animated mesh. But the acceleration is momentary. Throttle changes the period between pulses. And altitude (actually atmospheric density) effects pulse yield. Try a stronger yield pulse unit after making sure you are throttled up. 

[Nothalogh]

1 hour ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

The g-forces are calculated on the vessel. The pusher plate is just an animated mesh. But the acceleration is momentary. Throttle changes the period between pulses. And altitude (actually atmospheric density) effects pulse yield. Try a stronger yield pulse unit after making sure you are throttled up. 

So that's the thing, it seems that the pulse per second, even at full throttle, is excessively low.

And going to higher energy pulses, while it does work, results in unworkable G-Forces

[TiktaalikDreaming]

1 hour ago, Nothalogh said:

So that's the thing, it seems that the pulse per second, even at full throttle, is excessively low.

And going to higher energy pulses, while it does work, results in unworkable G-Forces

What mass vehicle? 

[Nothalogh]

8 minutes ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

What mass vehicle? 

950 Ton.

It seems the throttle setting doesn't really affect pulse rate

[TiktaalikDreaming]

3 hours ago, Nothalogh said:

950 Ton.

It seems the throttle setting doesn't really affect pulse rate

OK. I'll check when I get home tonight, but I was pretty sure 950 was a fairly normal size and should launch ok with the 1.4kt units for the first ten or so Km. 

The throttling is fairly subtle. The total variation is between about 0.8 sec and 1.4sec.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

I could lift off to around 6km using just the 1kt units, then stepped to the 1.9 for the rest of the delta V to get to orbit.  I was peaking at around 13-15G  Didn't have any trouble with the craft falling apart.  Are you using Kerbal Joint Reinforcement?  Pretty sure a really well built craft with lots of struts can get into orbit without that, but it's highly recommended for large craft of any sort.

 

[Nothalogh]

9 hours ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

I was peaking at around 13-15G

Which is the core of my argument, Orion is not supposed to work that way.

The whole reason for the shock absorber is to moderate the 15G pulse to about a 2G pulse.

 

I try to keep my builds in line with reality, G load wise especially

Edited April 26, 2017 by Nothalogh

[TiktaalikDreaming]

18 minutes ago, Nothalogh said:

Which is the core of my argument, Orion is not supposed to work that way.

The whole reason for the shock absorber is to moderate the 15G pulse to about a 2G pulse.

 

I try to keep my builds in line with reality, G load wise especially

Yes, but KSP imposes certain limitations.  The impulse applied by the system cannot be moderated out to a smoothed curve peaking at ~2G.  The impulse is applied over a shorter timeframe than it is on a real pulse system.  Not that a real Orion would be a smooth ride.  Any Orion vehicle would need to be made to deal with +4G to -4G, because in reality, that pusher plate pulls back on the craft as well, any time you don't follow up with a new pulse.

And KSP comes to the rescue a bit there, as you CAN build craft that will handle 15G impulses, and they probably look a lot like real craft build to deal with an 8G variation.

At some stage, I may update the module to impart the impulse over a wider block of time, but it's not likely to happen any time soon.

All that said, you should be able to get into orbit using only 2-3G pulses.  I know there's a bit of a gap between the 1.9kt and 5kt pulse units, that's particularly onerous on the 86f.  But you should be OK using the 1.4 and 1.9kt up to 30-50km altitude.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

And here's what happens in game.

The whole "acceleration" is applied as a single instance of velocity change.  The "geeForce_Instant" (orange line) is basically the deltaV divided by one physics time period.  The "G force" (blue line) shown in game though, is averaged out over a larger time frame, possibly to avoid the gauge bouncing around too much.

So, although the module basically applies the velocity all at once, KSP's various coding shortcuts averages that out as far as G forces are concerned, and you get a very rough approximation of the acceleration curve an Orion *should* have.

So, yes, it's not a perfect simulation.  But, at least for non-RO games, it's accurate enough.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

Just a quick notification regarding 1.3 compatibility.  The current version is basically as OK with 1.3 as it was for 1.2.2.  The manufacturer isn't fixed up, so you can't select parts in the VAB/SPH via the manufacturer.  Apart from that, it's the same.  And, I don't know if anyone much is using this.  And I have a large, third done, major revamp of the whole thing.  So, unless anyone desperately needs the upper stages to the NASA craft based on the USAF Orion, then I propose to wait until my rebuild of the parts is done before updating.

Preview of parts done;

[hms_warrior]

Hey just a quick suggestion:

Since this mod doesn't seem to be a "copy part folder into GameData and done" mod i think a simple txt file with a step-by-step instalation guide would be realy helpfull for noobs like me.

Anyway the pic looks awesome^^ i realy like the "steampunk" (rocketpunk?) look with the seams , rivets and porthole-like windows.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

47 minutes ago, hms_warrior said:

Hey just a quick suggestion:

Since this mod doesn't seem to be a "copy part folder into GameData and done" mod i think a simple txt file with a step-by-step instalation guide would be realy helpfull for noobs like me.

Anyway the pic looks awesome^^ i realy like the "steampunk" (rocketpunk?) look with the seams , rivets and porthole-like windows.

This mod is in a limbo state while being butchered into revised state. It certainly is intended for standard install, although I honestly can't remember the existing folder structure.

 

[TiktaalikDreaming]

I'm stepping down the stack redoing the parts for the 10m NASA Orion.  I've got to the Exporer sections (the 7.2m wide habitat area) and I'm not sure which way to go.  The existing mod uses 60 degree wedges around a core, as the design called for wedge type modules around the core, and this seemed a nice way of providing lots of choices and variety in how the section is built.  Redoing this, I've gone back to the source material, and they should be 45 degree wedges, which is easy enough to do, but I'm wondering if the extra flexibility is worth the extra part count and messing around getting all those parts stuck together.  Which is not a question I feel I should answer without some feedback.

So, option 1 would be to keep the interchangeable wedge thing, and make the staterooms, the bathrooms, the lab/workshop, the galley, recreation room, etc.  And have everyone place the parts as they choose (meaning most people will never add the rec room, the galley, the bathroom etc, 'cos kerbals don't need those.

EG 

Or, option 2, just make a couple of different 7.2m wide floors in the arrangement they would have been in.

eg

Which is clearly much easier.  It'll probably also be much stronger.  But, it would loose the flexibility.

 

 

[HebaruSan]

I only ever used the wedges to build complete floors, with some of each type of area (command, lab, hab, etc.). They have a novelty value, but in terms of gameplay I think full floor parts would work just as well.

[TiktaalikDreaming]

9 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

I only ever used the wedges to build complete floors, with some of each type of area (command, lab, hab, etc.). They have a novelty value, but in terms of gameplay I think full floor parts would work just as well.

That's what I'm thinking.  It'll also make the IVAs a lot easier.  Glad someone else thinks the same.