Use more Gender-neutral Language

[peadar1987]

To those who argue that "manned" is a gender-neutral word, I give you Douglas Hofstader's excellent counterargument:

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

[Canopus]

This is getting ridiculous guys.

I think it is definitely worth the effort to remove words that offend a significant portion of the community.

You can't tell me that anyone looks at the word unmanned and says "this really hurts my feelings and if they don't change that i will stop playing the game and tell everyone how evil the developers are." And even if 1% of players do that, they are not significant portion of the community.

Also why is everyone trying so hard to be offended by something these days?

[Wahgineer]

I think it is definitely worth the effort to remove words that offend a significant portion of the community.

You seriously think that those terms offend anyone? Has it occurred to you that this is probably the first thread talking about gender neutral terms? It really is a non-issue. If you don't like the terms manned/unmanned, then only use probes. Stop trying to convince the community that this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

[Arugela]

This is getting ridiculous guys.

You can't tell me that anyone looks at the word unmanned and says "this really hurts my feelings and if they don't change that i will stop playing the game and tell everyone how evil the developers are." And even if 1% of players do that, they are not significant portion of the community.

Also why is everyone trying so hard to be offended by something these days?

And define significant... Oo? And what or how exactly does it offend you? There is some level of reason that has to be applied to these things.(I know, this is what he just said. 8p)

Remember, you, the person bringing this up, have the first obligation to prove your point. It's your argument. Prove it to everyone!

Edited March 9, 2015 by Arugela

[Sampa]

I really do not know what keeps bringing me back to this one thread...I keep saying that I am going to wash my hands of this thread, and yet I can't keep myself from returning to it...

[tater]

I'm not offended by the use of "manned" at all, I'm suggesting that "crewed" is not only more equitable (given the root word in "manned") but also better reflects the fact that Kerbals aren't human. I believe OP feels the same.

This should really end any debate right here.

Forget sexism, it's speciesism.

I think it is definitely worth the effort to remove words that offend a significant portion of the community.

I'd do it because it is a more rational, descriptive use of language. Generally speaking I don't really care about "giving offense," there are some that are offended by almost anything we could come up with.

Edited March 9, 2015 by tater

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

I think it is definitely worth the effort to remove words that offend a significant portion of the community.

Me, and my other 243 friends who play this game think that space is offensive to the Flat Earth Society. I think it should be removed.

[peadar1987]

Me, and my other 243 friends who play this game think that space is offensive to the Flat Earth Society. I think it should be removed.

Do members of the flat earth society face ingrained discrimination based on a fundamental aspect of who they are? Do they get paid less for the same work? Constantly belittled and their opinions less-highly valued? Held to a hypocritical double standard? Because unless they do your comparison isn't really valid

[stibbons]

A core tenet of flat earth philosophy is "I haven't personally seen the curvature of the earth therefore it can't be a sphere".

Using it as an analogy to ignore sexism is some next-level irony.

[Wahgineer]

The only problem with your argument is that there is NO SEXISM TO IGNORE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! KSP has no hint of sexism whatsoever. If you think so, then stop playing and stop complaining about a non issue.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Do members of the flat earth society face ingrained discrimination based on a fundamental aspect of who they are? Do they get paid less for the same work? Constantly belittled and their opinions less-highly valued? Held to a hypocritical double standard? Because unless they do your comparison isn't really valid

Then why haven't they added ethnic, tall, short, fat, anorexic, strong, weak etc. Kerbals? Please do excuse my off-topicness, but it is still a valid argument. Besides, this is for gender neutral LANGUAGE. Not about adding them or not. So why are you trying to belittle me, and eventually accuse me of being part of the patriarchy?

Edited March 9, 2015 by TheCanadianVendingMachine

[Dodgey]

Sexism by defination is discrimatrion or prejudice based on ones gender, please explain to us how the use of what most consider to be gender neutral language this is achieved.

[peadar1987]

Then why haven't they added ethnic, tall, short, fat, anorexic, strong, weak etc. Kerbals? Please do excuse my off-topicness, but it is still a valid argument. Besides, this is for gender neutral LANGUAGE. Not about adding them or not. So why are you trying to belittle me, and eventually accuse me of being part of the patriarchy?

Language is a fundamental part of how we think, and gender-specific language certainly doesn't help the problem of gender inequality. That's why it's important. If Kerbals were obviously an analogue for one race as well as once gender, I would want other races included too. As it is, they are wall-eyed green men with no nose or lips, not obviously an analogue for any human race in particular. As for your other points, there isn't really any comparison to be made between the discrimination faced by women on a daily basis, and someone of below average height. And how would you even know if a Kerbal was anorexic?

I am not trying to belittle you, I believe I attacked your argument without attacking you personally.

[Arugela]

Me, and my other 243 friends who play this game think that space is offensive to the Flat Earth Society. I think it should be removed.

That does bring up an interesting idea though. Maybe a deep space object one day!! 8D

Do members of the flat earth society face ingrained discrimination based on a fundamental aspect of who they are? Do they get paid less for the same work? Constantly belittled and their opinions less-highly valued? Held to a hypocritical double standard? Because unless they do your comparison isn't really valid

Technically they have, at various points in history! Do you think you would get a job in a certain field of work in some situation if you were a flat earth society believer in science and you really meant it? Do you think you couldn't be denied, even on grounds of work ability, when it is still technically an argument and still science. I'm sure it's happened. And this is outside of the fact that the word discrimination like most words today and arguments are very simple or simplified now. Discrimination can be good and bad. It's part of life and something fundamental. You must do it at different times in different places to different things. Being discriminated against does not mean you were wronged. What if the discriminator was correct about something. The word actually means something more complex. So the use of discrimination is not a complete argument. It is not valid in itself. It requires more argument to do correctly and prove the chosen conclusion.

What people don't like today is not being agreed with or someone saying what they are is not good. Well, it's not that simple. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't. It's very complex. The flat removal of it based on it as a single subject is to act on one sense as the flat earth society is seen. As wanting a simple flat world with nothing to complain about. One where everything goes your way and no complexity or hurdles exist in it.(This is also, in some views, classically the desire of tyrants and like desires) Now obviously the logic used by the real earth society is real logic as observation is really needed(and much more) to know something and is a valid argument. In fact that can create more knowledge in making others look or is a proper statement of the situation. Someones word is not proof though.

In the end you cannot get outside of reality and all viewpoints are valid per say. And are using something. You can only simplify something(an argument) from it's most complex(true) state. All arguments are withing that realm and are technically trying to get to the highest state. But where those things collide is where everything in life comes from. but it is not simple to say one thing is always good and always bad. It never works that way. Life is too complex. There is a wonderful verse in the bible(as much as people hate that) that portrays a very good principle. There is a season for all things. It means nothing can be simplified as it is by everyone in just about everything today. 8) Everything is about perspective and context. Nothing itself is ever always good or bad. And the creation of such logic is where all of the harm in life come from as it is when people have gotten to lazy(or as they get too lazy) to thinks things out all the way and demand shortcuts to things in life and take these easier answers. Particularly as society and life permit them to over time. It is stating that as a principle as people forget that pretty much more easily than anything else. It's human behavior(Technically laziness.)

Edited March 9, 2015 by Arugela

[Master Tao]

Let's bring this discussion back to the topic at hand: suggested word changes in KSP.

[Warhawk]

TL;DR -> The vast majority of people don't care whether Kerbals are female or not, but because they don't care, they don't speak up about it. As a result, the ones who do speak up are the ones who have an agenda to push, and can claim they are the "majority" simply because they are among the only ones talking. Those who try to counter them are mocked, as is customary by those pushing an agenda, such that the image of being a vocal "majority" is maintained. Thus the minority actually enforces it on the majority. It's a form of control.

Proof -> If the game was really so "misogynist" that people didn't play it, KSP wouldn't be approaching 1.0 status, would it? If it was so bad, it would show in its sales. KSP has been successful and renown up to this point, without this topic ever being necessary.

Result -> The end result is that KSP becomes a minefield of gender titles and pronouns, which was precisely the reason why Squad should never have introduced Valentina Kerman in the first place. They had a chance to simply sidestep it by never mentioning it again, and failed, opening the pandora's box seen here. There is now a precedent, and the media attention will be forthcoming. Have fun with it, fence-sitters.

[peadar1987]

TL;DR -> The vast majority of people don't care whether Kerbals are female or not, but because they don't care, they don't speak up about it. As a result, the ones who do speak up are the ones who have an agenda to push, and can claim they are the "majority" simply because they are among the only ones talking. Those who try to counter them are mocked, as is customary by those pushing an agenda, such that the image of being a vocal "majority" is maintained. Thus the minority actually enforces it on the majority. It's a form of control.

Proof -> If the game was really so "misogynist" that people didn't play it, KSP wouldn't be approaching 1.0 status, would it? If it was so bad, it would show in its sales. KSP has been successful and renown up to this point, without this topic ever being necessary.

Result -> The end result is that KSP becomes a minefield of gender titles and pronouns, which was precisely the reason why Squad should never have introduced Valentina Kerman in the first place. They had a chance to simply sidestep it by never mentioning it again, and failed, opening the pandora's box seen here. There is now a precedent, and the media attention will be forthcoming. Have fun with it, fence-sitters.

Nobody was claiming that KSP was misogynist, they were saying that it would be better if it represented females. Multiple polls have been carried out, and the results have always been that Kerbals as they stand are obviously all male, and that most people would prefer female Kerbals at some point, especially the females who actually play the game.

[AbacusWizard]

It seems strange to me that the folks who claim that gender in video games isn't important are the ones who get the most angry when anyone suggests introducing more gender diversity to video games.

[Dodgey]

My takeaway from the OP was that the choice of language in the game favored males over females due to the choice of the words manned, unmanned ect. This is only true if the words manned, unmanned ect were gendered terms which they are not. If the issue is that Kerbals are not humans therfore those terms don't make sense then fine, you are correct (personally I would call you pedantic but that's just me).

But to try and claim that those words should be changed because they favor one gender over another is simply wrong because they are gender neutral in today's society.

[Kibble]

You seriously think that those terms offend anyone?

If nobody was offended by it not only would the thread have not started, but had it started, it would have ended immediately.

[regex]

But to try and claim that those words should be changed because they favor one gender over another is simply wrong because they are gender neutral in today's society.

Well, actually, that's debatable given a quick Google search. The word is most certainly gendered as the root word is "man". It says something that the word "man", denoting a male of the human species, is also the root of "human", "humanity", "manned", and even "woman". Interestingly, the gender specifier we use for males is also the root of "female".

[syfyguy64]

If nobody was offended by it not only would the thread have not started, but had it started, it would have ended immediately.

If you silence any dissent with "Some people are offended," then no one would be allowed to speak publicly at all. Being offended is human, and pandering to people who [take offense] whenever you say the word manned is something that Squad has yet to do, which is probably the best thing they've done behind making this game.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Red Iron Crown
Let's just tone it down a bit.

[Dodgey]

Well, actually, that's debatable given a quick Google search. The word is most certainly gendered as the root word is "man". It says something that the word "man", denoting a male of the human species, is also the root of "human", "humanity", "manned", and even "woman". Interestingly, the gender specifier we use for males is also the root of "female".

I'm not denying the origin of the word. What in saying is that in today's society those words are not used in a gendered way, in defining both manned and unmanned Google makes no reference to gender. The Free Dictionary does make a reference to gender by using the word "men" when referencing the military use of the word manned. "(Military) supplied or equipped with men, esp soldiers"

However I would argue that use of the word "men" is becoming less gendered. Even if it wasn't becoming less gendered it is not a fair comparison of the word as it is defined as gender neutral every other time.

[regex]

I'm not denying the origin of the word. What in saying is that in today's society those words are not used in a gendered way,

Yes, but the original root of the word, and its usage, is gendered. Some people, like me, feel that new times deserve new ways of thinking about language. Plus, Kerbals. May be"kerbaled" would be a better descriptor.

[Master Tao]

This thread has run it's course. The more recent posts have been too off-topic or rehashing the same arguments to allow useful discussion. Feel free to consider on your own the current word choices in the game as well as their current and historical connotations, but this discussion has ended.