My views on language usage

[willitstimothy]

I\'ve put this here in off topic to explain to those who may have seen previous posts by my person, and who wish to understand better my own position so that they can then better understand what I say.

I was born and raised in southern California, and I was educated in a very sheltered manner (home-schooled). I am very conservative and very passionate about many topics. Additionally I am very interested in politics, and am willing to take (and I do take) very politically 'incorrect' stances on many issues.

I grew up in a region of the US where the supposed majority is actually the minority, and is stigmatized, as if they were the majority, by everyone else, where the language and customs of America are often abused or forgotten, and where people like me are very very rare. The friends I had while growing up were apathetic and liberal, but I was never either.

Thus, it bugs me (and mildly angers me) when I am driving around in SoCal and I see a billboard or a street sign that is written in Spanish, when I see ballots written in Spanish, or when I ask an employee at a major store a question and they cannot answer me in English. I live in the United States, not Spain, not Ecuador, not Mexico - the United States. By default, the language of America is English, nothing else (America was the territory of Great Britain for over a third of it\'s existence (currently)), and to me it does not seem unreasonable to expect English to be spoken in America.

Now I am not unreasonable, I recognize that other nations and cultures have their own languages as well. Russia speaks Russian, Ukraine speaks Ukrainian, Mexicans speak Spanish, and Brazilians speak Portuguese, and I would not expect to see anything normally being written in English in those nations, and I would not expect the residents to speak English either. It simply isn\'t their language. It is discourteous to them to expect them to cater to the linguistic needs of someone who did not bother to learn their language, unless of course it is their job or profession to do so.

Hence:

I tend to be a Nationalist of sorts, though not in the sense that I think that my country (by merit of race) is greater than any other. Simply I see America as being America and not Russia. America\'s language is its own, and its original citizens should not have to learn any other language to to survive, socially and physically, within it. America\'s customs are its own, and it is disrespectful for anyone within America to ignore those customs and instead practice the rites of another culture.

I am a conservative.

I am not of the 'there is no absolute truth' crowd, or the 'everything you say doesn\'t really matter because its just your opinion' crowd.

I am by choice politically 'incorrect' quite often.

These things are some of the reasons why I enjoy going to school in eastern Washington state.

I am in NO way a racist.

So what does this have to do with this forum and what I say here? After all, Squad is a Mexican company, and thus by all rights this forum should be primarily in Spanish, with English being stuck in a corner of the forum, right?

The game is made in English, which I suspect is probably because whoever studied this project proposal decided that the game would probably do better, sales-wise, if it catered to English speaking customers, and furthermore the forums rules specify that posts and comments everywhere on the forum must be in English, except in the non-English section which is dedicated to the rest of the languages on earth.

I appreciate this highly because first of all I recognize that Squad doesn\'t really have an obligation, based on where it is from, to write anything in English (I do actually know enough Spanish to where I can understand, somewhat, things written in Spanish though). Also, most forums that I have been on do not have such rules, and it is annoying to see a bunch of posts being written in another language, which to me is simply blah blah and more blah, especially when those people use bad grammar and spelling to the degree that google translate can\'t translate what they are saying. I try my best to write what I say with proper spelling and grammar for partially this very reason (so that it can be translated properly for those who do not understand English).

I am not intolerant, per se, of anyone, or their character, culture, and language, and as a member of American society, being both descended from recently (about 100 years ago) immigrated and hated (for being immigrants, Romanians, and originally non-English speakers) Americans and from Americans who who lived and died while being British citizens on this continent, I feel that it is not intolerant for me to expect people here in my country to speak my country\'s language. Likewise I don\'t believe that it is intolerant for me to feel that it is rude for members of a forum, wherein it is specified that posts contained therein must be written in English, to use another language.

Please recognize that that which I am saying here is meant to be an explanation, not an insult. If it is considered a strike against me, please recognize at least that much.

[Ascensiam]

Do try. Remember that in actuality, almost any opinion is acceptable here as long as you keep the offensive parts to yourself.

[Kryten]

(America was the territory of Great Britain for over a third of it\'s existence (currently)),

California was the territory of Spain, and then Mexico, for well over a third of its existence. By your own argument, the very fact that you know English is \'disrespectful\'.

[Tiberion]

Here\'s the thing.

It is against the rules to post in another language outside of the International Forum.

Not because the other languages are inferior in any way, but because we don\'t have the moderation staff to handle all of those languages and this is intended to be an English-speaking forum.

So it is okay to remind users to speak English, though we\'d rather you just report the post and let us handle it.

However, we have other rules on this forum, too, specifically this one:

Section 6: Intolerance

A user shall not: Create a post or topic that has 'Racist' content.

A user shall not: Create a post or topic that has 'Sexist' content.

A user shall not: Openly create posts or topics that intolerantly criticize another persons belief system. Open discussion, and civil debate along with tolerant criticism are allowed.

So berating a user in ANY way related to sex, religion, nationality, ethnicity, LANGUAGE, or any other defining factors is OUT OF LINE and will be punished severely.

I won\'t discuss your moderation directly in public, but please consider the above rules in great detail in the future.

And on a personal note outside of my role as a moderator, and also a conservative: You should really look into working on being more tolerant of others. Some of them things you said in your rant will not serve you very well in life, I think.

[willitstimothy]

California was the territory of Spain, and then Mexico, for well over a third of its existence. By your own argument, the very fact that you know English is \'disrespectful\'.

California is part of America today, not Mexico. If it was part of Mexico then you would be right. Additionally though, while Spain claimed California for a long time, it and its residents were not directly controlled by Spain (the native residents did not speak Spanish) until the time of the missions (beginning in 1769 at San Diego (where I currently 'live')). California\'s residents rebelled 79 years later in 1848 and became the short lived California Republic, which within a couple of months became a territory of the United States.

Are you saying then that I should delete this off topic post?

[Caesar15]

I agree with you, i hate it when immigrants come not knowing english, or all they know sis panish and they coem here to work and make no effort to learn english.

[Ydoow]

I agree with you, i hate it when immigrants come not knowing english, or all they know sis panish and they coem here to work and make no effort to learn english.

:l

I hope you at least consider that thought next time you visit a foreign country

[socket7]

I agree with you, i hate it when immigrants come not knowing english, or all they know sis panish and they coem here to work and make no effort to learn english.

How many of them do you know? Not seen on TV. Not saw in the parking lot of home depot once. How many of them do you know? Have you ever made an effort to get to know one of them?

Truly a sad thing when people will hate another person without ever even getting to know them...

[bandit4910]

:l

I hope you at least consider that thought next time you visit a foreign country

Why would we EVER go to a foreign country, I only went to one once and I spoke there language.

[cardgame]

I used to be a Hispanophobe like you, but then I took a Spanish class to the mind. As long as there is dual translation, I don\'t mind, but I do know what upsets you. It\'s not really that it\'s Spanish, it\'s that you don\'t understand it and thus fear/dislike it. Simple psychology tells me that much, and explains why education is a good thing.

Languages are cool, but also very difficult to learn, English notoriously so, as it is a mixture of well over three different languages. I no longer harbor any resentment towards foreign languages or their speakers, but rather see it as a challenge to figure out how much I can decipher from the latin and muy pequeno Espanol yo se ;P

[willitstimothy]

To be very very clear: I don\'t hate immigrants or even illegal immigrants at all. That which I do not like ('hate' is misunderstood by too many people) is when those people who come here legally or otherwise refuse to assimilate and instead create zones of America that become exactly, or remotely, like the countries they left, and I especially don\'t like this when it causes them to become a financial burden upon the rest of our populace, thereby dragging our country even further into debt and necessitating higher taxes to be paid by those who are not responsible for the increase in cost. I don\'t hate them, but it does seem to me that, out of respect, anyone who comes here should assimilate or go back to where they are comfortable.

If you like America, I celebrate you, and I am honored that you want to live here. I, my forefathers, who are both recent and distant immigrants, and all true Americans are dishonored, though, when you come here and take the freedoms we give you but refuse to become part of our culture.

The worst is slowly showing its face in America today because the culture of America, in the eyes of the majority of the nation\'s populace, is coming to be known as a lack of identity, unity, or respect.

I used to be a Hispanophobe like you, but then I took a Spanish class to the mind. As long as there is dual translation, I don\'t mind, but I do know what upsets you. It\'s not really that it\'s Spanish, it\'s that you don\'t understand it and thus fear/dislike it. Simple psychology tells me that much, and explains why education is a good thing.

Languages are cool...

Man, I do know some Spanish, I took two years of it in high school and now I know enough to be able to read things that are in Spanish (somewhat) and communicate on a basic level, but it isn\'t the 'fear of the language' that I am turned off by. It is the lack of respect for my country, on the part of those residents that necessitate the use of multiple languages within it, that bugs me.

Yes! Other languages are cool, but that does not mean that it is cool to be disrespectful to someone else\'s country, ancestors, culture, or rules (in the case of this forum).

[Tosh]

It is against the rules to post in another language outside of the International Forum.

Sorry, but presently there\'s no such rule listed in Forum Rules topic.

So it is okay to remind users to speak English, though we\'d rather you just report the post and let us handle it.

At my experience (I\'ve reported several posts written in non-English) moderators sometimes tend to avoid to take actions regarding these posts. Probably it\'s because we haven\'t such a rule? o_O

I believe we should have...

[Tiberion]

But you are making wild leaps, that someone who can\'t speak the exactl language you know is somehow disrespecting your country and you personally. YOu assume that immigrants are driving up the debt, when many many many of them contribute vast quantities of manual labor for terrible pay.

Worse, you carried that poor attitude over into your interactions with people who are actually from other nation and were highly insulting to them. They aren\'t insulting America by posting in another language, and you were out of line.

I\'ll say it again, you need to educate yourself about a lot of things. When you go off on half-cocked rants about America and disrespect and immigrants, you make all of us Americans who are perfectly reasonable people look bad. As a fellow American, I IMPLORE you to think before you speak.

As for 'respect' and the degradation of our society; How about the slothful youth of this generation who have everything handed to them and barely know english themselves; not because they\'re form another country but because they can\'t be bothered to properly apply themselves at school.

No, the degradation of the American culture falls squarely on our own shoulders. We can\'t push that off on someone else.

@Tosh: You\'re right, its been an informal rule (and almost everyone has complied with it after being asked once) We can make it official, I am sure, but its not been a huge deal up to this point; Certainly the OPs response has been more dramatic than any issue with language I have seen thus far.

[Caesar15]

:l

I hope you at least consider that thought next time you visit a foreign country

Theres a diffrence between tourists and immigrants.

[Guest GroundHOG-2010]

But you are making wild leaps, that someone who can\'t speak the exactl language you know is somehow disrespecting your country and you personally. YOu assume that immigrants are driving up the debt, when many many many of them contribute vast quantities of manual labor for terrible pay.

Worse, you carried that poor attitude over into your interactions with people who are actually from other nation and were highly insulting to them. They aren\'t insulting America by posting in another language, and you were out of line.

I\'ll say it again, you need to educate yourself about a lot of things. When you go off on half-cocked rants about America and disrespect and immigrants, you make all of us Americans who are perfectly reasonable people look bad. As a fellow American, I IMPLORE you to think before you speak.

As for 'respect' and the degradation of our society; How about the slothful youth of this generation who have everything handed to them and barely know english themselves; not because they\'re form another country but because they can\'t be bothered to properly apply themselves at school.

No, the degradation of the American culture falls squarely on our own shoulders. We can\'t push that off on someone else.

Thats the most agreeable thing said on this topic so far.

[Tosh]

But you are making wild leaps, that someone who can\'t speak the exactl language you know is somehow disrespecting your country and you personally. -snip-

I\'d rather take willitstimothy\'s side here.

There\'ve been several cases recently when a forum member (not naming the names, he\'s already dealt with) continuously refused to speak English to show... what? Disrespect? A greatness of his own nation in comparison with (whatever)? His independence of the formal rules and community\'s opinion? I just don\'t know :

I\'d say that was quite insulting. And definitely made his fellow countrymen look bad

So at my opinion (a) willitstimothy has a point here (at least in feeling insulted by some foreign-language posts), and ( a rule prohibiting non-English posts should be made formal.

[willitstimothy]

But you are making wild leaps, that someone who can\'t speak the exactl language you know is somehow disrespecting your country and you personally. YOu assume that immigrants are driving up the debt, when many many many of them contribute vast quantities of manual labor for terrible pay.

Worse, you carried that poor attitude over into your interactions with people who are actually from other nation and were highly insulting to them. They aren\'t insulting America by posting in another language, and you were out of line.

I\'ll say it again, you need to educate yourself about a lot of things. When you go off on half-cocked rants about America and disrespect and immigrants, you make all of us Americans who are perfectly reasonable people look bad. As a fellow American, I IMPLORE you to think before you speak.

As for 'respect' and the degradation of our society; How about the slothful youth of this generation who have everything handed to them and barely know english themselves; not because they\'re form another country but because they can\'t be bothered to properly apply themselves at school.

No, the degradation of the American culture falls squarely on our own shoulders. We can\'t push that off on someone else.

I assume. I assume! I assume? Who pays for their anchor babies to go to public school? Who pays the emergency room bills for those who cannot get, either because of ineligibility or because of a lack of legal citizenship, insurance? Who pays for them to be in our prisons when they commit crimes?

LA county alone spends as much as 4.4 billion dollars on just education for children of illegals who do not pay taxes (http://www.the1789project.com/2011/02/illegal-imigrations-cost-education-of-anchor-babies/).

More than 100 billion dollars are spent annually in the US to support illegal, improperly taxed, illegal immigrants.

I have paid attention to this kind of stuff since I was seven years old, over 13 years ago.

I don\'t expect other Americans or people who post on an English forum to speak English nearly as well as myself, but I do expect them to try to speak and utilize English predominantly in their lives, or in this forum to just attempt to use it by way of broken self constructed grammar or google translate, and teach their children to use and speak it.

Those kinds of jobs are what they do because those are the kinds of jobs that those lazy apathetic hand-fed kids were meant to do and do not (I am not saying anything negative about the people who do these jobs, what I mean is is that those kids are slothful and useless because they don\'t do the jobs they should be doing). When my father was a young boy (a minor and a teenager) he worked in the fields picking and boxing fruit, he worked in canneries, he worked at gas stations pumping gas and washing windshields, and he did jobs which today are rarely ever done by young Americans anymore. I have done some of these jobs myself. You are very right about that one thing, yes this degradation of our society is our fault. We have taught our children, both through law and example, that they don\'t need to work or do anything. However this is not purely our fault, for some of the blame also falls upon those who flood those entry level job markets, making it next to impossible for significant numbers of young Americans to enter into those jobs. Minimum wages have also shot us in the foot, those jobs should be met by young people who are not fully responsible for their own support, but they aren\'t being filled by these young people and are being filled by those who do have to support themselves, thus wages 'have' to go higher, thereby increasing costs for consumers and decreasing available jobs as companies trim off positions to save money.

Language is the most important part of any culture, without it one cannot ever really come to appreciate its facets fully. Thus when someone does not speak English in America, they don\'t really learn American culture either, nor do they interact with Americans particularly much. In many cases they simply gravitate to 'international' communities within America where everyone speaks their language and is party to their customs, and thus isolating themselves from the country they are in. America was not meant to be that at all, thus it is disrespectful to the founders of America, my ancestors, for them to be doing that.

It is a lot like a person going to a school, who was also accepted into the school with the help of one of its professors, with a free ride for which the rules are that they will attend all classes, earn a 3.0 or higher, and that they will be socially active, who then proceeds to miss most classes, fail on a regular basis, and live in their dorm away from all social interaction. Such actions are obviously disrespectful (right?) to the professor who helped them get there, to the institution that gave them a free ride, and to the rules that were laid down for them to follow.

It is true that I do have a tendency to say things that can be hurtful (you aren\'t the first person by any means to say that), and this is a problem that I have that is inexcusable and is also one of the main reasons I end up having to live my life away from most people (like that\'s obvious here). It is actually part of who I am, I won\'t explain that but it is true. In my defense, though, I must say that the policy or rule or whatever you want to call it (the first page of the forum seems to pretty clear concerning the nature of postings of non-English content in the description of the International forum) that we use English on the forums is the reason that I am even talking about any of this at all. My comments had nothing to do with where they were from (they did not mean to anyway).

Please take what I say with an un-healthfully large helping of sugar, it\'s meant to sound far sweeter than it apparently does when you read it.

I have read and re-read all of the things I\'ve written, and with a few exceptions, I\'ve never really found what people find so upsetting in my writing. Sometimes people complain about my writing being too 'snooty' or proud, or whatever negative adjective that is most common today, because of my use of long and complicated words, phrases, and sentences. Personally, though, I believe that clarity is best served by the utilization of many words and phrases that are craftily arranged to paint the picture of one\'s thoughts. I also tend to write like this more when I am tired (I often wonder why I make my life harder when I am tired)... In any case, I apologize for my offenses, and as a Christian I hope you will be able to forgive me.

[Awaras]

I agree with you, i hate it when immigrants come not knowing english, or all they know sis panish and they coem here to work and make no effort to learn english.

Yeah...

[socket7]

[mod]AAAAND we're done here. This is a forum about rocketry. Lets discuss rocketry, not language. This is too political and too divisive a subject. I've been letting it go on so both sides get their fair say, but I'm worried we're soon going to venture into the realm of petty insults and it will only serve to create bad blood between people. We want everyone to be friends here. [/mod]