Electric or hydrogen cars?

[magnemoe]

Electric per mile is vastly cheaper (AFAIK), even when adding taxes that fuel also has. So it can become viable when the hardware with it goes down in price and/or range increases.

Its very viable in Norway as we has very high car and fuel prices while electrical cars avoid all of it.

However as Bill Phil said it did not took of until we got electrical cars who looked and handled like regular cars like Nissan Leaf, think 40% of Teslas are sold to Norway with 5 mill population.

The first generation of tiny cars was mostly bought by companies who wanted to front an profile and they was also easy to park downtown.

Fuel taxes are very national, fun note is that trucks in Europe tend to have oversize fuel tanks, 1000 liters is on the small side, makes sense to could drive from Portugal to Finland and only refuel in Andorra,

[Bill Phil]

It's more comfortable to drive to a gas station than to sit for a working day next to your vehicle.

That's why you sleep in your house while it charges, and let it charge at your work place.

[magnemoe]

The problem with that is that most of the cost of fuel comes from taxes, though how much depends on the country. In some it is as much as 85-90%. As soon as electric driving takes off, the cost to the respective governments will become too big, and electric driving will be taxed one way or another.

Right now, the cost difference is hardly relevant, due to the earlier mentioned charging problems. If you drive a lot, charging is not viable, so it is hard to recoup your investment. We come to the same conclusion again, being that electric cars need to become better. When price goes down and range goes up, yes, it will be interesting

You can not tax electricity for electrical cars only, you can increase road taxes, this hits everyone from the cargo, the single mother in an old beat up car to the guy with his Tesla constantly on insane as he charges for free at the company parking house and is required to supply free charging for electrical cars.

Secondary problem is that taxes has multiple purposes, primarily is getting money, secondary is shaping behavior by tax "sinful/ bad" behavior more and reward good behavior.

Now changing tax setup is hard, main operation is to add more taxes to get the budget in balance, however the settings and previous promises shape this, lots of special taxes is legacy who makes no sense today. However society adjust often in surreal ways, Norway has very high car taxes and has seen all sort of tricks, cutting cars into pieces, import as junk and weld together, put oversize baggage rails on an Porsche and import as pickup, all sort of stuff, rules changes and you get other adjustments, many are directly counterproductive.

In short its complicated, doing manned missions to Mars is very simple compared to it.

[Mecripp]

It's all about money Tesla made a car in 1931 and drove it for think it was a couple of days and had a top speed around 90 mph and with out recharging it so how did he do it and he could send Electrical charge up to 4 miles away with out wires and we can't do today 7 ft it's all been about money.

[Camacha]

That's why you sleep in your house while it charges, and let it charge at your work place.

I will say it for the third time: those are all perfectly fine ways of solving these teething problems, but for the technology to have any chance or success with the broader public, those will need to be gone. People are used to cars being an on demand service, they will not accept having to plan their days around them. It is not going to happen without massive incentives or forcefully making people do it.

You know as well as I do that driving any real distance is out of the question, unless you are a very patient human being. Electric cars are a great technology, even if you are the sports car kind of guy. The mechanical advantages and power production are unreal compared to fuel driven cars. But unless that wretched battery gets sorted out, we are going nowhere with this technology.

The Top Gear guys, while being Top Gear, make valid points: Electric car test.

You can not tax electricity for electrical cars only

Of course you can. We are talking about governments, they can do those kinds of things with ease. Though you are right, taxes will be shifted to something else. Road taxes will most likely go up quite a bit or fines will go through the roof.

Just like people and their luxuries, governments do not give up tax money

Edited March 21, 2015 by Camacha

[Bill Phil]

I will say it for the third time: those are all perfectly fine ways of solving these teething problems, but for the technology to have any chance or success with the broader public, those will need to be gone. People are used to cars being an on demand service, they will not accept having to plan their days around them. It is not going to happen without massive incentives or forcefully making people do it.

You know as well as I do that driving any real distance is out of the question, unless you are a very patient human being. Electric cars are a great technology, even if you are the sports car kind of guy. The mechanical advantages and power production are unreal compared to fuel driven cars. But unless that wretched battery gets sorted out, we are going nowhere with this technology.

People already plan their days around cars, so as to make them on demand. That's what people do with phones. Make them usable on demand by charging them overnight, or while doing something else.

Most cars don't need all that much range at all. You can then use large scale mass transportation methods to move people large distances. But that's not going to happen anytime soon...

You can use fuel cells that aren't hydrogen cells. You could use Methane Fuel Cells to charge a car while driving. Since most cars need a battery to start it anyways, which is then charged by the alternator which is run by the motor... It wouldn't be that much of a difference in terms of charging a battery.

[magnemoe]

Of course you can. We are talking about governments, they can do those kinds of things with ease. Though you are right, taxes will be shifted to something else. Road taxes will most likely go up quite a bit or fines will go through the roof.

Just like people and their luxuries, governments do not give up tax money

However road taxes hit everyone, yes you could go after car type depending on registration sign, but on the other hand local air pollution is an more relevant issue than car taxes in lots of cities.

On the gripping hand I'm not sure how much of the polution today who is from the engines, dust from tires against roads is an major part.

Cities has no perfect answers, ancient Rome had major traffic issues, cars was seen as an solution 100 years ago and they was drowning in horse .....

Back to Norway the zombie parliament found that diesel cars emitted less CO2, so the taxes favored them until measurements showed that local polution was at dangerous levels and rising fast because all the added diesel cars. No its no good ways to solve this problem, I also apology if I insult any zombies at this forum.

Even more fun, increasing taxes on electricity increase the use of firewood, again an issue in Norway who has lots of trees and its not good in smog cities, goverment tend to act like an KSP SAS with an 5 minutes delay, no turning it off make things way worse.

[VincentS]

I suppose that you could add induction hardware on highway (or any other power supply method that is acceptable while moving). This could solve charge time, maximum range and even tax problem (tax highway use for electric car). Battery could be made smaller, lighter and cheaper (you only need enough range to get to the highway).

[Camacha]

People already plan their days around cars, so as to make them on demand.

How do people plan their day around cars? They do not. Even in bad whether, people keep driving as if it is a perfect day. People just do not adapt at all.

[Bill Phil]

How do people plan their day around cars? They do not. Even in bad whether, people keep driving as if it is a perfect day. People just do not adapt at all.

To make something on demand, one must keep it in shape.

[Camacha]

To make something on demand, one must keep it in shape.

Sorry, I am completely not understanding what you mean Are you talking about maintenance?

[tater]

Electric cars are fine as long as you never want to go on a long trip, then they are effectively useless (unless you are retired, and can take a week to drive someplace you'd normally go in 1-2 days.

[Camacha]

Electric cars are fine as long as you never want to go on a long trip, then they are effectively useless (unless you are retired, and can take a week to drive someplace you'd normally go in 1-2 days.

1-2 days is already pretty optimistic. Realistically, a properly useful car like the Nissan Leaf has a range of about 150 kilometres, though it depends on circumstances. If can be a lot less or slightly more. Driving on the highway that means, in most countries, you would be happy to get two hours out of it, and quite likely it will be less. Top Gear showed us that the Leaf will take 11 hours to fully charge when depleted. So everything over two hours of one way driving is pretty much out of the question. That is fine for a fair amount of commutes or grocery shopping, but anything beyond that quickly becomes unviable. If you want to make a round trip, you either have to charge on site or shorten your journey. Remember that very few companies or car parks have charging stations yet and that finding your own solution is sometimes actively discouraged by blocking all options.

If I look at why I need a car it is because I need to bring bigger stuff than I can carry, and because I need to go longer distances. The shorter trips can easily be done by foot, bike, train or bus, but for taking a bunch of stuff and/or going on a day trip a car is pretty much the only option. Trains are a good second, though taking too much with you is out of the question.

As a second runabout car, electric might be interesting, but if you only have one vehicle, the range is still prohibitively limited. I am not even talking about purchase cost and write-off, as both are quite high compared to normal vehicles.

[Tommygun]

You can not tax electricity for electrical cars only, you can increase road taxes, this hits everyone from the cargo, the single mother in an old beat up car to the guy with his Tesla constantly on insane as he charges for free at the company parking house and is required to supply free charging for electrical cars.

Secondary problem is that taxes has multiple purposes, primarily is getting money, secondary is shaping behavior by tax "sinful/ bad" behavior more and reward good behavior.

Now changing tax setup is hard, main operation is to add more taxes to get the budget in balance, however the settings and previous promises shape this, lots of special taxes is legacy who makes no sense today. However society adjust often in surreal ways, Norway has very high car taxes and has seen all sort of tricks, cutting cars into pieces, import as junk and weld together, put oversize baggage rails on an Porsche and import as pickup, all sort of stuff, rules changes and you get other adjustments, many are directly counterproductive.

In short its complicated, doing manned missions to Mars is very simple compared to it.

Here in California they are considering a requirement to have electric meters on electric cars for the purposes of taxing them.

I'm not sure what kind of plan they have for reading them. I guess they could go wireless or have them read at a garage like a smog inspection.

[Bill Phil]

Sorry, I am completely not understanding what you mean Are you talking about maintenance?

Cars have overheads for being on demand. Maintenance is one, yes. Keeping it fueled is one, of course.

In this case electric cars have similar overheads for being on demand as well. But instead of having to go to a gas station, you could "fuel" it at home. Not with current setups, but it could be done.

And the battery problem does need to be solved before all electric cars are used en masse, sure. But humans are great innovators, we'll find a way.

[Camacha]

Here in California they are considering a requirement to have electric meters on electric cars for the purposes of taxing them.

That is what I meant. Nature the government will find a way. Cars are way too much of a cash cow to leave them alone.

- - - Updated - - -

In this case electric cars have similar overheads for being on demand as well. But instead of having to go to a gas station, you could "fuel" it at home. Not with current setups, but it could be done.

Gas stations are ubiquitous and charging stations are not. However, it still does not make much of a difference, as driving to a gas station will still take less time than charging for hours and hours. Even if you can do most of that charging during other activities, it is still a constant hassle and issue. You can mitigate it, but there is a very natural limit to how many people are prepared to deal with that. I feel most that are willing to compromise already do, but that the bulk of the people will not.

And yes, some humans are great innovators, but sadly, most are not. We shine when things get tight. I am afraid we might have to use up all of our gas reserves before we really solve this one, and that much strife will come of it. It is already happening and it will only get worse.

[Bill Phil]

The only problem is the battery. If you can make it drive 40 miles ( ~60 km) in one day, and hold a charge for those miles while charging overnight, then most Americans ( at least) will use it. (Seeing how that's the average distance driven per day per American...)

Then you just need ones that can go a lot more distance per charge.

[tater]

I routinely have multi hour day trips here in NM. It's 2.5 hours to Taos, and another 30-45 to the ski area. Impossible in any electric car. It would take 2 days to just get to Carlsbad caverns, someplace I've taken people on tight schedules as a day trip from my house (it's totally worth a 9 hour drive, leaving at o-my-god-thirty in the morning, better as an overnight trip, though).

[Camacha]

The only problem is the battery. If you can make it drive 40 miles ( ~60 km) in one day, and hold a charge for those miles while charging overnight, then most Americans ( at least) will use it.

From a technical point of view that would be enough and correct, but that is looking at statistics in a very dry and mathematical manner. I think that exactly those previously mentioned experiences with smartphones will deter people, as folks have been through what that means to have a limited battery and do not want to deal with that again, especially if that means getting stuck on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere.

Mass psychology is a fickle thing.

Then you just need ones that can go a lot more distance per charge.

If you could go 800 kilometres on one charge, I think most objections will be gone indeed. Though the problem of holidays and long trips remains, and since people actually buy bigger cars just because of those, I am left to wonder how much that will influence people.

[Kibble]

needs more train

[Camacha]

needs more train

If you are talking about self governing vehicles that can drive in close proximity to each other on the motorway, then yes. That might increase efficiency dramatically and should be relatively easy to achieve. Easier than making each individual car more efficient, that is, though a two pronged attack might yield even better results.

[Newt]

If you could go 800 kilometres on one charge, I think most objections will be gone indeed. Though the problem of holidays and long trips remains, and since people actually buy bigger cars just because of those, I am left to wonder how much that will influence people.

That is, if you could go 800km on a charge, and that is a big request, considering the current limitations. Of course, trains are great for long distance movement, if there exists infrastructure.

I feel most that are willing to compromise already do, but that the bulk of the people will not.

I cannot help but believe that this is not the case. It takes infrastructure (like a garage, oftentimes), to make charging convenient, and it takes a large investment on a new and generally above average cost vehicle from the outset. I know one person who has an electric car, and they are about the richest person I know. They do not have an electric car for efficiency purposes, or I doubt that they do, they use a hulking 5kpl (12mpg) SUV to carry their family. And yet I know dozens of people who care about trying to limit fuel usage; these people are more likely bicyclists, users of hybrid cars, people who ride mass transit and travel (like I do most places) by foot, people who carpool, and who just try to avoid driving much, or do it carefully to be efficient.

For now, electric cars are a niche market in which mostly the wealthy can take part.

[Camacha]

That is, if you could go 800km on a charge, and that is a big request, considering the current limitations. Of course, trains are great for long distance movement, if there exists infrastructure.

The problem with trains traditionally is that they do not go where you go. You have to transfer and hope that there will be local options to continue your journey. Also, taking more than you can carry is troublesome. I do a lot by train and I like them for the long haul, but they have distinct limitations.

And yet I know dozens of people who care about trying to limit fuel usage; these people are more likely bicyclists, users of hybrid cars, people who ride mass transit and travel (like I do most places) by foot, people who carpool, and who just try to avoid driving much, or do it carefully to be efficient.

You are right that electric cars being much more expensive too does not help things at all.

Whether riding a bike counts as compromising severely depends on where you come from and who you ask In some places bicyclists are the rare exception and come with a cult like attitude, in other countries everyone does it.

[Columbia]

Wait, can't hydrogen catch fire?

(Because Hindenburg)

[RainDreamer]

Wait, can't hydrogen catch fire?

(Because Hindenburg)

Precisely because it can catch fire it works as a fuel. It is also a type of rocket fuel.

It is just much cleaner for the environment, as its exhaust is just water.