peadar1987 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 So, full disclosure, I think these therapies have been proven beyond doubt to be highly effective... at separating gullible people from their money. They have been repeatedly shown in multiple double-blind studies to have no healing effect over and above that of a placebo.My question is, is it still ethical to fund them? The placebo effect is a real thing, and in many cases can be quite powerful. So long as you make sure not to dicourage people from taking actual treatments, it can actually provide huge relief for things like chronic pain, especially psychosomatic pain, various mental health problems, stress and anxiety. If people are stupid enough to believe that any of these treatments is effective, and will get a genuine placebo benefit from taking them, and it costs less than actual treatments, does the end justify the means, so to speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibb31 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 It's not a matter of stupidity or gullibility. As you say, the placebo effect is real, and there are areas where medical teams use it effectively. As long as public healthcare funding isn't paying for it, I don't see any problem with people using alternative medicine if it makes them feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainDreamer Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The problem is not with the placebo effect, is with people who exploit people gullibility for their own profit, and misinformation that prevent people from actually going out to find real information and treatment for serious problems.It is all good if you are in a backwater place and people simply have no access to real medical treatment, and placebo is an acceptable alternative treatment for *some* non-life threatening conditions. But once you put a price tag to your placebo and consider it as an actual treatment, it is bad. You don't just sell people plain old water as medicine, with the price of medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peadar1987 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 It's not a matter of stupidity or gullibility. As you say, the placebo effect is real, and there are areas where medical teams use it effectively. As long as public healthcare funding isn't paying for it, I don't see any problem with people using alternative medicine if it makes them feel better.I would contend that belief in "alternative medicine" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is a clear sign of stupidity or gullibility, but that's neither here nor there.My question was specifically related to public funding. Obviously people are free to spend their own money on whatever rubbish they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K^2 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyler4856 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I would contend that belief in "alternative medicine" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is a clear sign of stupidity or gullibility, but that's neither here nor there.Ignorance would be a more descriptive term.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibb31 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 My point was that the placebo effect doesn't necessarily rely on stupidity or gullibility. It relies on the patient not knowing that they are being administered a placebo. Placebo medication has a place in modern mainstream medicine, especially in palliative care. I think that public funding is perfectly appropriate in that setting.But yeah, there is no reason for public funding to be channeled into alternative medicines that have been proven to be ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelLestat Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Fun video, hard reality..I guess there is two kind of people, those who search for answers with a certain level of skepticism and those who accept just the answers which they most like.I'm not entirely sure if these behavior had their root/trigger in genetics or if they totally depends on the individual learning enviroment of each subject.If is genetic trigger, then ban these alternative medicine methods may do more bad than good. Edited March 31, 2015 by AngelLestat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Hobo Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I think administering placebos in the form of a sugar pill with no active ingredient is completely fine. However, I don't think it's right to promote things that are physically impossible, such as homeopathy or magnetic healing. The former is taking advantage of someone's ignorance in order to make them feel better. The latter is actively increasing someone's ignorance in order to make them feel better. Then they've become a prime target for all the snake oil salesmen in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Swift Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 My question was specifically related to public funding. Obviously people are free to spend their own money on whatever rubbish they want.In that case:1) No, that would be stupid.2) If we really want to spend public money on making medicine that doesn't actually work and telling people it does, we can do better than just water. We could sell medicine that helps against some of the symptoms but not all and tell the patients they are getting the full cure. In cases where that is difficult or not possible we could at the very least use vitamin pills or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 There is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. There are therapies that have been demonstrated in controlled studies to be effective, and those that have not are hokum.It's fine to test some (actual medicines like sow palmetto for BPH, for example) to see if they work, but some don't even need that to debunk--- and practitioners invariably avoid controlled testing ( etc). What is sickening is that some are given legitimacy by the government---like chiropractic is by inclusion in government health care legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkmdlb Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 So, full disclosure, I think these therapies have been proven beyond doubt to be highly effective... at separating gullible people from their money.You almost made me rage right there, OP. Kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 ^^^yeah, that was well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Most of these alternative treatments are indeed bogus. But homoeopathy does have a small scientific base.Homoeopathy states that symptoms caused by a certain substance can be cured by the same substance in diluted form. This is true as the diluted form can trigger the immune system to ready itself to fight off the full dose. Or desensitise the body so it won't react as violent as before. However Homoeopathy also states this effect becomes stronger as the the dilution increases. This of course is total nonsense. Some 'cures' are diluted to the point there is only one single molecule of the original substance left in the entire bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Velocity- Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 So, full disclosure, I think these therapies have been proven beyond doubt to be highly effective... at separating gullible people from their money. They have been repeatedly shown in multiple double-blind studies to have no healing effect over and above that of a placebo.My question is, is it still ethical to fund them? The placebo effect is a real thing, and in many cases can be quite powerful. So long as you make sure not to dicourage people from taking actual treatments, it can actually provide huge relief for things like chronic pain, especially psychosomatic pain, various mental health problems, stress and anxiety. If people are stupid enough to believe that any of these treatments is effective, and will get a genuine placebo benefit from taking them, and it costs less than actual treatments, does the end justify the means, so to speak?Not ethical, because you could just have the people receive the placebo effect from actual medical treatments that could also be truly helping them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Not ethical, because you could just have the people receive the placebo effect from actual medical treatments that could also be truly helping them.True. But don't forget regular medicine often have serious side effects. People might even be allergic to them.If alternative medicine doesn't hurt the patients but does give relief I don't see any reason why to not offer it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibb31 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Most of these alternative treatments are indeed bogus. But homoeopathy does have a small scientific base.Homoeopathy states that symptoms caused by a certain substance can be cured by the same substance in diluted form. Define "dilution". A typical homeopathic dilution is equivalent to a pinch of salt in the Atlantic Ocean. The chances that a pill contains even a single molecule of the diluted product are infinitesimal. Statistically, the pills don't contain anything.From Wikipedia: "A popular homeopathic treatment for the flu is a 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum. As there are only about 10^80 atoms in the entire observable universe, a dilution of one molecule in the observable universe would be about 40C. Oscillococcinum would thus require 10^320 more universes to simply have one molecule in the final substance."This is true as the diluted form can trigger the immune system to ready itself to fight off the full dose. Or desensitise the body so it won't react as violent as before. This implies that the immune system actually gets in contact with the diluted molecule, which it doesn't. Edited March 31, 2015 by Nibb31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Velocity- Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 True. But don't forget regular medicine often have serious side effects. People might even be allergic to them.If alternative medicine doesn't hurt the patients but does give relief I don't see any reason why to not offer it to them.Alternative medicine can have side effects too. You're better off with faith-based healing, which only has the side effect of wasted time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Ben Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Society_and_culture(Though it seems not a link in this case. Would be scary if it was... because CATS)PS, knowing why the "theories" in that video is wrong is the key. Sadly most people would consider it a sound argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Swift Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 True. But don't forget regular medicine often have serious side effects. People might even be allergic to them.If alternative medicine doesn't hurt the patients but does give relief I don't see any reason why to not offer it to them.The problem is that you are still lying to your customers, it doesn't matter that it helps in some cases, you are still maintaining a false picture of the world. And this picture will have negative effects on at least some of these people, because no matter how much you encourage your customers to still pursue traditional medicine (not that I believe alternative medicine producers are encouraging this very hard at the moment, for obvious reasons) there are going to be people that skip actual treatment in favor of alternative medicine because you told them it would help. Actual medical treatments and their side effects are hard enough to understand for a lay person even at the best of times, we don't need people coming in and blurring the picture even further. There is a nice quote by Randall Munroe on the subject:"Telling someone who trusts you that you're giving them medicine when you know you’re not, because you want their money, that's not just lying--it’s like an example you’d make up if you had to illustrate for a child why lying is wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugix Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 About 10 years ago we had the case of Sylvia Millekamp in the Netherlands. She was a quite famous actor who got breast cancer. In stead of getting the appropriate treatment she got 'advice' from alternative healer Jomanda who gave her alternative medications and kept advising not to get a radiation treatment.sylvia died painfully, Jomanda got sued but won the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Most of these alternative treatments are indeed bogus. But homoeopathy does have a small scientific base.Homoeopathy states that symptoms caused by a certain substance can be cured by the same substance in diluted form. This is true as the diluted form can trigger the immune system to ready itself to fight off the full dose. Or desensitise the body so it won't react as violent as before. However Homoeopathy also states this effect becomes stronger as the the dilution increases. This of course is total nonsense. Some 'cures' are diluted to the point there is only one single molecule of the original substance left in the entire bottle.Homeopathy has exactly zero scientific basis, whatsoever.Their dilution rates are to below zero. They claim that water has " a memory." You can dilute their supposed treatment to the point it's gone, then use the water to make more. If it were true, every sip of water on earth would already have therapeutic levels of homeopathic cures for every ailment on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex_NL Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Homeopathy has exactly zero scientific basis, whatsoever.Their dilution rates are to below zero. They claim that water has " a memory." You can dilute their supposed treatment to the point it's gone, then use the water to make more. If it were true, every sip of water on earth would already have therapeutic levels of homeopathic cures for every ailment on earth.Homoeopathic dilutions are indeed insane and have no rational effect whatsoever. The dilutions I was talking about are in the order of 1/100 to 1/1000. Those are still chemically 'active' and can actually be measured.I've studied chemistry in the past so you don't have to tell me water doesn't have a 'memory'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkmdlb Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Let me quote from homeopathy's founder, Samuel Hahnemann:[The homeopathic method which] employs against the totality of the symptoms of a natural disease a medicine that is capable of exciting in healthy persons symptoms that closely resemble those of the disease itself, is the only one that is really salutary and which always annihilates disease, or the purely dynamic aberrations of the vital powers in an easy, prompt, and perfect manner. In this respect, nature herself furnishes the example when, by adding to an existing disease a new one that resembles it, she cures it promptly and effectually....Physical and moral diseases are cured in the same manner. Why does the brilliant planet Jupiter disappear in the twilight from the eyes of him who gazes at it? Because a similar but more potent power, the light of breaking day, then acts upon these organs. With what are we in the habit of flattering the olfactory nerves when offended by disagreeable odours? With snuff, which affects the nose in a similar manner but more powerfully. Neither music nor confectionary will overcome the disgust of smelling, because these objects have affinity with the nerves of other senses...The Germans, a nation which had for centuries been plunged in apathy and slavery - it was not till after they had been bowed to the dust by the tyranny of the invader, that a sentiment of the dignity of man could be awakened within them, or that they could once more arise from their abject condition.That's all from his book - The Organon of the Healing Art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Homoeopathic dilutions are indeed insane and have no rational effect whatsoever. The dilutions I was talking about are in the order of 1/100 to 1/1000. Those are still chemically 'active' and can actually be measured.I've studied chemistry in the past so you don't have to tell me water doesn't have a 'memory'.Yes but an 1/1000 dilution is not uncommon for strong medicine, you want pills to have an practical size, if the medicine is given intravenous you have to dilute it a lot too.Homoeopathy don't work for alcohol If you take an huge bottle of vodka, give the content to an friend then fill it with water three times the next glass does not have more effect than the glass you friend has. Setting is worse for non alcoholic beer who contains minor traces but so so small its legal to drink then you are not allowed to touch alcohol. We know many of the natural medicines as herbs and so on work as they contains active ingredients, however the pharma companies has looked very well into them and all sort of folk medicine in search for medicines. Some are used other times you find that you have other stuff who is better or you tweak the molecule to get better effects. One major downside with herbs is that the strength of the active ingredient is very variable, part of plant and growing condition of it will change this with magnitudes. A herb based medicine was banned in Norway as it was too strong, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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