Call for collaborators - Mechanical Engineering Reference Guide for Add-on Authors

[sumghai]

Update:

The Engineer's Handbook for Modders thread is now open for business

---

Premise

Often, when an add-on author develops mod parts that depict some form of mechanical linkage or device, they find themselves having to seek out reference information, such as photographs, dimensioned drawings or technical specification documents. A couple of examples include:

- Cpt. Kipard was recently involved in a discussion on how to hypothetically implement a NASA Docking System style-docking port

- I myself spent a good part of the past weekend looking for mechanical dimensions / interfacing standards for the International Standard Payload Rack (ISPR) and the Shuttle Middeck Locker.

Most of this information is often available as PDF documents hosted on academic, corporate or space agency websites (e.g. NASA); however, it was felt that a consolidated source for such information would be very useful to add-on authors.

Proposal

The intention is to essentially create a thread similar to the Mod Development Links Compilation, but one that focuses specifically on mechanical design / engineering standards that could be applicable to making models / plugins in KSP. Add-on authors could contribute links to posts, threads, documents or pictures covering aspects such as:

- Types of mechanical linkages / joints

- Devices, such as stepper motors, linear actuators, hydraulics / pneumatics

- Design of structural components or pressure vessels for crew compartments

- Design / operation manuals of historical spacecraft and space systems

- Human / Kerbal ergonomics in spacecraft

- etc.

Early Questions

- NASA often makes technical manuals and standards specifications available for public access over the internet; however, these are often hidden behind obscure URLs, or are hosted on subdomains operated by NASA sub-departments that periodically get merged with other groups or shut down, meaning that such resources are lost forever. Would it make sense to host copies of these images / PDFs on a centralized archive, assuming that licensing / redistribution issues could be worked out?

- Should the thread also act as a general consultancy thread, where an add-on author could submit a question for other authors to provide advice on?

Comments and offers to contribute are welcome.

EDIT: Moved to The Science Labs subforum - the actual thread will eventually be created in Add-on Development

Edited April 16, 2015 by sumghai

[Arron Rift]

Very good idea! I don't think I could be very helpful with this, but I am eager to see how this develops! Best of luck!

Edit: Might I suggest also making a relatively easy to browse version? It may passively help mod-makers of even outlandish mods design parts more realistically the more they have been staring at real world machines rather than Star Wars, etc.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Arron Rift

[CaptainKipard]

Alrighty. Sumghai, just in case this isn't frowned upon it'd be a good idea to make an announcement in The Science Labs. You might find qualified professionals or even enthusiastic amateurs in there more easily. I'll also add a link in my signature.

Here are some mechanisms to consider and organise:

http://imgur.com/gallery/ayaC4

http://imgur.com/gallery/4V4Aw4z

http://imgur.com/gallery/s1908

http://www.reddit.com/r/Gears/

I think if we cold have a visual example for each item along with a short description of usage examples and maybe the principle behind it, that would be good.

I would like to also make a specific request of anyone reading for some blueprints or specs or a technical description of the mechanism that opens the space shuttle cargo bay doors. It's something I tried to implement in my Skylon, but what I ended up with had disproportionate components and as a result would not open the bay doors as far as I wanted without clipping geometry.

[sumghai]

Alrighty. Sumghai, just in case this isn't frowned upon it'd be a good idea to make an announcement in The Science Labs. You might find qualified professionals or even enthusiastic amateurs in there more easily.

Excellent idea - I've moved the thread as suggested.

Here are some mechanisms to consider and organise:

http://imgur.com/gallery/ayaC4

http://imgur.com/gallery/4V4Aw4z

http://imgur.com/gallery/s1908

http://www.reddit.com/r/Gears/

I think if we cold have a visual example for each item along with a short description of usage examples and maybe the principle behind it, that would be good.

I'm trying to think of the best way to present this information. Perhaps the following?

(link to image/manual/document/reference) Name of mechanism (/link) - Description of operating principle and usage examples.

I would like to also make a specific request of anyone reading for some blueprints or specs or a technical description of the mechanism that opens the space shuttle cargo bay doors. It's something I tried to implement in my Skylon, but what I ended up with had disproportionate components and as a result would not open the bay doors as far as I wanted without clipping geometry.

http://i.imgur.com/aQJFJtE.png

I'll have a poke around in my files later this evening, I might have something on this.

[CaptainKipard]

As a potential user of this I would prefer to do as little clicking as possible. I think we should have gifs/videos embedded in the posts, and only link to other file types. I could make 3d visualisations of anything that doesn't have one or that can't be easily embedded, but I might need to have some maths of the motions explained to me. I don't have AutoCAD so I would have to fake the interactions between components by animating them directly.

I doubt this will be a problem though. The internet is really, really great if you know what to look for. You and other potential contributors will know all the jargon, so may I suggest you and other engineers create a simple text list of as many useful engineering terms (and whatever else) as you can think of so that I and others can do the menial work of looking for examples.

[sumghai]

As a potential user of this I would prefer to do as little clicking as possible. I think we should have gifs/videos embedded in the posts, and only link to other file types.

I suppose it depends on how the thread will be structured.

Personally, I'm tempted to go for having everything in the first post of the thread, and have an easy-to-lookup list of entries (much easier to find what you're looking for then scrolling through something intermittently interrupted by unrelated media). We could possibly put videos and GIFs inside spoilers.

I could make 3d visualisations of anything that doesn't have one or that can't be easily embedded, but I might need to have some maths of the motions explained to me. I don't have AutoCAD so I would have to fake the interactions between components by animating them directly.

I doubt this will be a problem though. The internet is really, really great if you know what to look for. You and other potential contributors will know all the jargon, so may I suggest you and other engineers create a simple text list of as many useful engineering terms (and whatever else) as you can think of so that I and others can do the menial work of looking for examples.

Might be best to do this on an as-needed basis, rather than proactively seeking out specific examples.

A glossary of terms subsection may be useful for the latter purpose.

[CaptainKipard]

Might be best to do this on an as-needed basis, rather than proactively seeking out specific examples.

A glossary of terms subsection may be useful for the latter purpose.

I don't get it. "As-needed" by whom?

[sumghai]

I don't get it. "As-needed" by whom?

Basically, for the most part, instead of specifically looking for entries thatmight be useful and trying to come up with possible uses, we catalogue concepts / mechanisms that someone already used as reference material when developing their own add-on.

Less work for us at the outset, and allows the thread to grow organically as needed over time.

[SpaceExplorer]

Hi sumghai,

I love the idea, it has applications for craft designers also (allowing them to see blueprints of different sections of real-world aircraft and spacecraft).

I also have a couple of suggestions:

Would it be at all possible for this to be its own separate sub-forum inside the Add-on and Development section? This would allow documents, images and blueprints to have their own thread, which mod authors have the ability to question about within that thread. This would also allow for more organisation than having one mega-thread with many different documents inside, combined with questions and other materials. You could also sticky a directory that could be updated with links to the different materials as they are posted in the sub-forum, which would help with the ease of access that Cpt. Kipard is talking about.

All the best, and if you need any help at all in order to get this going, I would be more than willing to do so.

[sumghai]

Would it be at all possible for this to be its own separate sub-forum inside the Add-on and Development section? This would allow documents, images and blueprints to have their own thread, which mod authors have the ability to question about within that thread. This would also allow for more organisation than having one mega-thread with many different documents inside, combined with questions and other materials. You could also sticky a directory that could be updated with links to the different materials as they are posted in the sub-forum, which would help with the ease of access that Cpt. Kipard is talking about.

I personally like the idea of a dedicated subforum as well, to make it easier to collect/manage both concise and detailed entries, but only senior forums administration (KasperVld?) has the power to approve the creation of said subforum.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on hosting our own copies of various documents, in case the originals no longer become available? (NASA resources have a habit of disappearing off the net as individual groups and departments come and go).

[SpaceExplorer]

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on hosting our own copies of various documents, in case the originals no longer become available? (NASA resources have a habit of disappearing off the net as individual groups and departments come and go).

This would work for now, until there has been a decision on how to implement this archive into the forums. (Do you know if senior global moderators like sal_vager have the ability to create sub-forums also?)

I have a few things but not a lot, and will for sure hold on to them until this archive is created...

[CaptainKipard]

Basically, for the most part, instead of specifically looking for entries thatmight be useful and trying to come up with possible uses, we catalogue concepts / mechanisms that someone already used as reference material when developing their own add-on.

Less work for us at the outset, and allows the thread to grow organically as needed over time.

Well... there's a point there. On reviewing the links I posted earlier I can see most of those are completely useless here, but I'm sure modders don't do more mechanical animations sometimes precisely because they don't even know what knowledge is out there to be found. It's very difficult to find technical information on details like joints if you don't know what search terms to give to google. I spent a lot more time than a sane person should trying to figure out the proper technical name of that cargo bay mechanism, just so I could find information on how to design it for my purpose. It was completely fruitless because I didn't know what words to use. In the end I had to guess the dimensions of all the components, and gave up completely because it didn't do what I want, and I wasn't about to do complex mathematics for such a detail.

So yes, add things people already know they need, but also what they don't know they need. You're in a good position as an engineer and a modder to judge that. Anyway I'm only asking for a list so that I have something to do.

I personally like the idea of a dedicated subforum as well, to make it easier to collect/manage both concise and detailed entries, but only senior forums administration (KasperVld?) has the power to approve the creation of said subforum.

I'd like a subforum too. It could be made into a general reference material forum with pictures and sounds as well, of which I already have a few examples in the dev sticky.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on hosting our own copies of various documents, in case the originals no longer become available? (NASA resources have a habit of disappearing off the net as individual groups and departments come and go).

Sure, why not. I guess they'd have to be public domain only. So no Skylon Manual?

[sumghai]

Well... there's a point there. On reviewing the links I posted earlier I can see most of those are completely useless here, but I'm sure modders don't do more mechanical animations sometimes precisely because they don't even know what knowledge is out there to be found. It's very difficult to find technical information on details like joints if you don't know what search terms to give to google. I spent a lot more time than a sane person should trying to figure out the proper technical name of that cargo bay mechanism, just so I could find information on how to design it for my purpose. It was completely fruitless because I didn't know what words to use. In the end I had to guess the dimensions of all the components, and gave up completely because it didn't do what I want, and I wasn't about to do complex mathematics for such a detail.

So yes, add things people already know they need, but also what they don't know they need. You're in a good position as an engineer and a modder to judge that. Anyway I'm only asking for a list so that I have something to do.

I think I understand what you mean there.

The reason I initially thought about this as a Modding Links Compilation-style topic is so that add-on authors can specifically request for help figuring out what the name is / what sort of mechanism to use for a certain part, and in addition to directly responding/helping them, we edit the OP and post a concise entry summarizing the mechanism and what it can be used for.

I'd like a subforum too. It could be made into a general reference material forum with pictures and sounds as well, of which I already have a few examples in the dev sticky.

I'll poke KasperVld in a moment and see what he thinks.

Sure, why not. I guess they'd have to be public domain only. So no Skylon Manual?

I didn't know there was even a Skylon Manual. I assume Reaction Engines were still developing/testing their engine?

But yeah, the content would have to be public domain only, so I'll need to check my personal archive to see if any of the stuff can be posted.

I'm thinking about using GitHub.io to host these resources, although I'm not sure about any of keeping local working folders on our own computers.

[CaptainKipard]

I didn't know there was even a Skylon Manual. I assume Reaction Engines were still developing/testing their engine?

Yeah they update the manual too, which is nice. Although I've only seen two versions of it so far.

[sumghai]

Yeah they update the manual too, which is nice. Although I've only seen two versions of it so far.

Had a quick look through it just now. Very cool.

I think that we could still link to copyrighted content, but just not re-host it ourselves. Might be good to mark the links in a way that people will know they're a "use at own risk, may no longer be available in the future" type of resource.

[SpaceExplorer]

Might be good to mark the links in a way that people will know they're a "use at own risk, may no longer be available in the future" type of resource.

I agree, the last thing we want is to have everything shut down because someone uploaded copyrighted content, should we screen stuff before to ensure that it is not, or do we not have the capability to do so?

EDIT: Do you mind if I put the link for this thread in my signature?

Edited April 14, 2015 by SpaceExplorer

[Teamwork]

Oh sweet, I've been hoping for something like this to come up!!! As an engineering student, I have access to a lot of scholarly engineering articles related to [though not limited to] space flight and other similar fields. I'm a little busy right now because of midterms and such, but I'm definitely going to contribute to this thread once all that's done.

[CaptainKipard]

Do you mind if I put the link for this thread in my signature?

You don't need to ask for permission. I already put one in mine.

[sumghai]

I have a feeling that having a dedicated subforum is highly unlikely at this stage, so I think that (at least, for the time being) we should start with a single thread in the Add-on Dev forums.

The OP will be constantly updated, with videos/GIFs/diagrams hidden in spoilers and links to PDFs/copyrighted content. We'll also need to set up some sort of Github repo for the public domain resources we are allowed to re-host ourselves - I'll think about whether to create a new GitHub user or organisation later today (KSP MechRef? KSP EngRef?).

Cpt. Kipard, I think it would be best if you be the one to start the thread, because that way *both* of us can edit it (whereas if I start the thread myself, only I could edit it, and I'm not always online).

[SpaceExplorer]

I have a feeling that having a dedicated subforum is highly unlikely at this stage, so I think that (at least, for the time being) we should start with a single thread in the Add-on Dev forums.

The OP will be constantly updated, with videos/GIFs/diagrams hidden in spoilers and links to PDFs/copyrighted content. We'll also need to set up some sort of Github repo for the public domain resources we are allowed to re-host ourselves - I'll think about whether to create a new GitHub user or organisation later today (KSP MechRef? KSP EngRef?).

Cpt. Kipard, I think it would be best if you be the one to start the thread, because that way *both* of us can edit it (whereas if I start the thread myself, only I could edit it, and I'm not always online).

Sucks that we will not have a sub-forum right off the bat, but I hope that this may potentially have the opportunity to have one in the future. Awesome work guys, and I am glad to see something like this will finally happen.

If either of you need any help whatsoever, please let me know, and I would be overjoyed with the opportunity to do so.

All the best, SpaceExplorer

[Mattasmack]

This is an interesting idea. Please update this thread when you do create the thread in Add-on Development, so those of us who don't normally look at that board know about it. I have a background in mechanical engineering and it's conceivable I could provide useful input to someone. To me at least, the format of an add-on author asking specific questions or asking for advice on a specific design makes more sense. I'm aware of lots of types of mechanisms, machine components, connectors, etc. but I have no idea what modders are working on. I'm not inclined to just start writing up things I know about, because most of it would likely be wasted time.

[CaptainKipard]

Cpt. Kipard, I think it would be best if you be the one to start the thread, because that way *both* of us can edit it (whereas if I start the thread myself, only I could edit it, and I'm not always online).

Roger, roger. Do you want a placeholder now, or should I wait until we have collected something substantial here?

If either of you need any help whatsoever, please let me know, and I would be overjoyed with the opportunity to do so.

I can't remember exactly, but did we already talk about this idea over PM a while ago? I know I brought it up once in passing somewhere and someone PM'd me about it.

Are you knowledgeable in the engineering field?

[sumghai]

Roger, roger. Do you want a placeholder now, or should I wait until we have collected something substantial here?

A placeholder would do for now. I can format it in more detail later

[CaptainKipard]

Link

Some ideas of what to include:

• Blueprints and schematics of rocket engines - People don't really know what an engine should look like beyond giving it an exhaust. Components should be made clear.
  
• Tankbutt problem - Many people don't know how to realistically attach engines to fuel tanks
  
• Cargo bay door joints and opening mechanism from the space shuttle
  
• Landing gear components - Most people don't understand what torque arms are for example or how gear bay doors are attached.
  
• RCS thruster placements for various craft - This is something I struggle with on my Skylon.
  
• Extendable solar panels components, joints and mechanisms.
  

Edited April 15, 2015 by Cpt. Kipard

[SpaceExplorer]

I can't remember exactly, but did we already talk about this idea over PM a while ago? I know I brought it up once in passing somewhere and someone PM'd me about it.

Are you knowledgeable in the engineering field?

I don't think so.... I personally have never been PM'd.

Also, sadly, I have very little knowledge in engineering. Although, I figured I could help out more in the "administrative" realm, i.e. letting you know about new content in order for you or sumghai to update the OP/Github, checking for copyrighted content, making sure that all the content that you guys post is accessible, as well as checking the overall integrity of the thread.

I know I have little knowledge, and I wish I focused on it more during my schooling, but I really love this idea and want to help out in anyway possible.