Karbonite questions

[KerikBalm]

As something Karbonite-like will be integrated into the stock game, and I've never used the mod, I was wondering if someone could give me a run down on what is needed to mine resources?

More specifically, I'm wondering what the mass of a "minimal" setup would be?

How much extra mass would I have to take along to be able to fill up the LFO tanks on a craft?

How fast is fuel made? is the speed relevant when we have time warp?

[impyre]

Well, it depends on a lot of factors. If you're using a karbonite-based probe/small lander and simply want to fill up on karbonite at the landing site, you can do so. The small drills *are* quite slow and inefficient... and depending on what kind of deposit you're sitting on, it could take hours or days. Also, electricity is needed (and using the small portable karbonite generator will likely draw more karbonite than you can pull up with a single small lander/probe). Also worth considering is time constraints for missions (and if you use TACLS or other life support). In order to build a site that is capable of performing refuels in the neighborhood of 6-10k units of karbonite, you'll need (*at a minimum*) several tons worth of equipment and a few more tons worth of storage tanks. This would allow you to refuel, but only crafts that have landed there. If you want to refuel orbiting vessels you'd have to launch the logistics hub (part of the USI MKS/OKS suite), which weighs 15t *by itself*, and isn't cheap. Of course once you add fuel, engine(s), landing gear, docking/connecting equipment, etc... it gets quite heavy and expensive. Not to mention the tech isn't available until something like tier 3 or 4. On-site refuelling for small probes and landers is only really worthwhile if you save the vessel itself for future missions (return in a cheap capsule built specifically for that purpose)... otherwise, you may end up spending more (than you saved in fuel) by purchasing mining equipment that you ended up ditching later.

In Karbonite (not sure about the stock implementation) mining vessels continue to mine while "on-rails", meaning you can do other things while fuel is being brought up. Time warp works just as well.

TL;DR: For a basic gas station, you'd need somewhere around 20-40 tons of equipment on site (depending on setup).

For probe/lander, just make sure it has some source of power (*not karbonite generator*).

Mining speed depends entirely on concentration, number of drills, amount of power available, and type of drills.

Edited April 17, 2015 by impyre

[JTpopcorn]

One thing on Karbonite, if it is used it is more effecient to convert on the ground rather than on a station however I think this will be changing. Using a low gravity moon will be the best way to get fuel to your orbiting megaships.

I suggest reading the Kethane or Karbonite threads.

[KerikBalm]

Well, it depends on a lot of factors. If you're using a karbonite-based probe/small lander and simply want to fill up on karbonite at the landing site, you can do so.

I'm not sure what Karbonite is.... is it like some unrefined fuel that ony goes in special tanks and works with special engines (I'm guessing low ISP or TWRs) ?

In order to build a site that is capable of performing refuels in the neighborhood of 6-10k units of karbonite, you'll need (*at a minimum*) several tons worth of equipment and a few more tons worth of storage tanks.

What stops me from just using empty tanks and a small drill? (+ some RTGs, or spamming of the massless and rather cheap OX-stat panels, since they still produce power out at Eeloo.... much more than they should)

If for example, I leave a small drill and empty tanks on Eeloo... given the trip times and launch windows, I think I could assume I'd have fuel for the return jounrey of even a large mission or many biome hops.

This would allow you to refuel, but only crafts that have landed there. If you want to refuel orbiting vessels you'd have to launch the logistics hub (part of the USI MKS/OKS suite), which weighs 15t *by itself*, and isn't cheap. Of course once you add fuel, engine(s), landing gear, docking/connecting equipment, etc... it gets quite heavy and expensive.

What does this logistics hub do? Use handwavium to get stuff to orbit?

I had assumed I would need to build a "lander-tanker" to haul the fuel up to orbit to a fuel depot.

I already have fuel depots in LKO, and refuel those, so I assumed I'd just be doing the same thing on other worlds (with a surface rendevous if the mining equipment was really heavy, or just have the mining equipment on the lander-tanker if the equipment isn't so heavy.

Not to mention the tech isn't available until something like tier 3 or 4. On-site refuelling for small probes and landers is only really worthwhile if you save the vessel itself for future missions (return in a cheap capsule built specifically for that purpose)... otherwise, you may end up spending more (than you saved in fuel) by purchasing mining equipment that you ended up ditching later.

I just want to know, what is the mass of equipment I must take to the surface to produce liquid fuel and oxidizer/Xenon gas/monoprop?

All the rest I can figure out myself and can be done without mods.

Or does it *only* produce karbonite, which can't be used to make the other resources?

[Empiro]

In the Karbonite mod, you can burn it directly -- it has, like you said, very poor ISP (but actually very high TWR).

It's hard to say how it will be implemented in 1.0, but I hope that it's balanced carefully. I hope it isn't just "infinite free fuel" once you get your base set up.

[impyre]

Yeah, karbonite is it's own fuel type. I personally like it. It's low ISP isn't really all that terrible... and is offset by the little noticed fact that the stuff is heavy as all get-out (and increased density means reduced fuel-flow rates and higher fuel mass/ship mass ratios... which offsets (at least mostly if not completely) the costs associated with lower ISP. I've begun using it as my primary fuel source in my career save. The ability to use without refining makes it worth many times its weight in LFO imo. Also, having the ability to leverage 12g's of acceleration when you really need it is handy... for long burns *or* emergencies (like stopping before hitting the ground).

In response to your other questions:

A) it does not use "handwavium"... it uses "obsurdium"... wait, no... it uses fuel. The same as other rockets (LFO or Karbonite in this case) also. And the amount of fuel required to lift a given payload mass (of fuel or supplies... as the logistics hub is capable of performing automated delivery of life support supplies, spare parts, and pretty much any other resource) is set up to mimic a semi-well-piloted craft. I could probably do it more efficiently myself, but it saves me time and annoyance... so I use it. (Besides, I'm sitting on nearly 600t of karbonite... i'm not gonna miss any)

I answered your question about tons... I *explicitly* said that a "gas station" setup could expect about 20-40t of equipment... but I *also said* that there are a *lot of factors*.... which you seem to be aware of yourself (by bringing up the extreme eeloo case)... in those cases, perhaps a small drill would do... but you'd still need tanks, and tanks aren't light. Did you read my post?

C) Karbonite can be refined into LFO, monoprop, xenon, etc... but the refineries will cost extra tons and the tanks will cost extra weight. I'm sure you can add. I tried to give a general answer for a most common usage (like mining karbonite on the mun or minmus to fuel things up before leaving kerbin soi (or for repeat local missions)... since that's cheaper than flying LFO up from kerbin). Whether you use that approach or not should depend on the situation. It doesn't seem worthwhile (to me) to ship out a refuelling/refining station to Duna for a single mission... though having something that can refuel itself on the fly can extend the mission capabilities of the craft.

D) Honestly, the best way is to download karbonite, look at the parts in a new sandbox save, see for yourself, come back, and ask some more specific questions.

E) I'm not really sure that stock-resources=karbonite... I'm certain karbonite will still do its own thing, and I doubt that stock will really allow you to do much besides mine ore for science/money and perhaps refuel in-situ. I doubt that knowing the exact tonnage required to build a full-scale karbonite fuelling station capable of delivering monoprop+LFO will really carry over into the stock versions.

******Here's the bottom line, Karbonite is a rich and complex mod.... stock cannot compare. There are many ways to accomplish tasks, and no one solution is "right". It takes practice to master it, and come up with your own solutions (which must be designed with a specific task in mind). Your question is not unlike asking "How much tons do I need to get to orbit?". I'm sorry, but there's no clear cut answer.********

Edited April 18, 2015 by impyre

[Mischief]

Karbonite is a cheap but heavy fuel that requires special tanks and engines to burn directly. You need a drill and tanks to collect it and the speed/viability of that drilling is dependent on the density of the resource in a given area. You can use refining equipment to turn Karbonite into other fuels.

As to the tonnage? It's going to vary entirely on your needs. There are several sizes of drills, tanks, distillers and refinement attachments. It's a very complex mod and, in turn, plugs in with a number of other complex mods (like asteroid mining, EPL, Karbonite+ that adds more karbonite engines, MKS/OKS that adds stations, etc. etc. etc) and I don't expect that to show up in the base game changes that are coming.

What I expect is a resource that can only be refined into other fuels. You'll need to scan for it, find it, then extract and refine it into fuel. I would not expect to see 'Karbonite engine' sort of components. What you're going to have is means of getting fuel from other worlds/moons/locations. This would let you build ships around a one-way trip that would then refuel and come home. It gives you reason to send scanning probes to a world ahead of a manned mission, to identify and test for the stuff in question and plot out an ideal landing zone.

I expect it to be only the barest representation of what Karbonite has in it, which is fine. RoverDude does amazing work and I consider the USI suite of mods absolutely essential to play KSP. It'll be a simplified version but I expect it to be very cool.