A bigger emphasis on time management

[Twreed87]

Right now, career mode places very little need on managing your time. The only place it really comes in is contract expiration, but those are usually so long they hardly matter. Do you think things should be added to make the timing of missions more important?

I'll give you an example of what I mean. So, when I start out a career game, I do my first suborbital hops, then orbit, then hit Mun and Minmus, and by the time I'm done with all of that, only a couple Kerbal weeks have passed. So then it becomes time to hit Duna, but I've got to wait a while for a Duna launch window, so I time warp nearly half a year. Gameplay-wise this presents no problem, but I feel weird that my space program spent a couple of weeks launching like crazy, exploring the whole Kerbin system, then just stopped and waited for months. Then of course I launch to Duna, and while I easily can run other missions while the ship is in flight, there's nothing stopping me from warping and finishing that mission.

So actually, what I do is I try to only timewarp in short bursts, and run at least a few missions in between launch windows. I also try to run multiple long missions at once, and I try to hit every launch window I can. (eg. launch to Duna, warp to Eve window, launch to Eve, warp to Duna intercept, etc...). There's nothing in the game making me do this, but I kinda wish there were. I think it'd be cool if features were added that incentivized running multiple missions at once.

Some ideas:

- Yearly budgets. In addition to contracts, you get a bit each year. Perhaps you lose it if you don't use it. Or maybe it's based on how much you did the last year.

- R&D time. Tech nodes could take a certain amount of time to unlock after you use Science to unlock it. Not long, but progressing as you go down the tree.

- Construction time. Depending on the size/part count of the ship, it takes a certain amount of time after building to be able to launch. From the VAB you could choose to start construction and be able to take it to the launch pad when ready, or there could be a "Construct and warp to Launch" button.

- Science over time. I know we're getting some of that in 1.0 with the changes to the Mobile Lab. Perhaps more? Orbital scanners and things?

- Life support. This could be a big one. If you've got an orbital station that needs regular resupply, you can't just warp a whole year to the next Duna launch window.

I don't think anything should be too punishing. There should always be ways that you can still run and entire Jool and return trip without interruption if you really want, but I think there should be incentives for not doing so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I like to play a weird way, and I want the game to reward me for it, and sorta force others to do the same.

[Mr. Scruffy]

Welcome to the party. Oh, and thanks for the poll.

[h4didact]

All you need to do to have time management system is add Life Support.

[Capt Snuggler]

Some ideas:

- Yearly budgets. In addition to contracts, you get a bit each year. Perhaps you lose it if you don't use it. Or maybe it's based on how much you did the last year.

this is a good idea but I think it but i think that it could come in the form of government "initiatives". eg. orbital research initiative, mun exploration initiative, deep space initiative. It would be like a contact but longer and more complex with multiple objectives. It would open up multiple smaller related contracts.

- R&D time. Tech nodes could take a certain amount of time to unlock after you use Science to unlock it. Not long, but progressing as you go down the tree.

a complete redo of the tech tree would also fit nicely with this. individual "stalks" for each main technology. rocketry, aerodynamics, life support, rovers, robotics(probes), sensors and instrumentation, structural. and fewer parts per node. The branches would intersect at points.

you could spend extra science points or money to speed up research if time is critical.

- Construction time. Depending on the size/part count of the ship, it takes a certain amount of time after building to be able to launch. From the VAB you could choose to start construction and be able to take it to the launch pad when ready, or there could be a "Construct and warp to Launch" button.

like it. this would need some kind of kerbal alarm clock and calendar tool to help you manage.

- Science over time. I know we're getting some of that in 1.0 with the changes to the Mobile Lab. Perhaps more? Orbital scanners and things?

if research stations needed life support and resupply science over time would work fine and could not be exploited. there could be experiment racks that need experiments delivered from kerbin. A geology lab that would need a supply of rock samples. by assigning a kerbal to a geology lab they would automatically venture outside and collect samples from close by. you could manually collect samples from further away for a science boost.

- Life support. This could be a big one. If you've got an orbital station that needs regular resupply, you can't just warp a whole year to the next Duna launch window.

this is an important one and largely keeps the whole time management system in check. you would only need two "resources". "supplies" and "refuse". crews would need supplies to stay alive and you could ether send them out with a mass of LS for the whole mission or resupply on the way. kerbals would slowly turn supplies in to refuse. LS stretching technologies would increase efficiency at the cost of electric charge. like a water reclaimer, LS garden, atmospheric processor. stations would still need resupply but would consume them more slowly.

[JumpsterG]

Have any of you done a mission to Eeloo or Jool lately? You realize it takes months and years of in-game time. If your life support on a station or funds will run out after time warping only a month, you're going to be spending a LOT of time doing mini-missions around Kerbin. After the 4th or 5th identical resupply mission in a row, wouldn't you get tired of it?

A Kerbal Alarm Clock system would make it manageable, but these systems turn the game into a hamster wheel, grinding funds and lifting supplies repeatedly instead of doing missions you want to do.

[rcp27]

I think the idea of life support and construction time are interesting for a particular play style, but are quite damaging to others. If what you want to do is just run one single big mission to a particular location, then bring it home, then start on the next one, then these ideas are going to add a dimension to the challenge. If you want to build space stations and bases in lots of locations, though, the need to run repeated identical supply missions, each one taking up construction time and funds, is going to make maintaining a permanent manned presence in space a huge drain on resources. If life support and construction time were added as stock features to the game, the first thing I would do in my save is fly to each of my manned facilities and bring everyone home, and just leave them as unmanned facilities. To me, that would be a shame, and would make the game less interesting, but it would be necessary to remove the endless grind of repeated supply missions.

[klgraham1013]

I wonder how many threads on this topic have been created. Anyway, I agree once again. Time management has been used to great affect in games. I can only see it improving KSP.

[Wjolcz]

KAC-like feature that lets you know about different events (getting close to manouver nodes, SOI changes, ejection angles, etc.) would be great.

[tater]

Have any of you done a mission to Eeloo or Jool lately? You realize it takes months and years of in-game time. If your life support on a station or funds will run out after time warping only a month, you're going to be spending a LOT of time doing mini-missions around Kerbin. After the 4th or 5th identical resupply mission in a row, wouldn't you get tired of it?

A Kerbal Alarm Clock system would make it manageable, but these systems turn the game into a hamster wheel, grinding funds and lifting supplies repeatedly instead of doing missions you want to do.

I've been doing just that with 64X… You need to bring a lot with you (as it should be).

The solution to resupply would be for your pilots to be able to pilot, then set up recurring missions they could do themselves (resupply).

- - - Updated - - -

I think the idea of life support and construction time are interesting for a particular play style, but are quite damaging to others. If what you want to do is just run one single big mission to a particular location, then bring it home, then start on the next one, then these ideas are going to add a dimension to the challenge. If you want to build space stations and bases in lots of locations, though, the need to run repeated identical supply missions, each one taking up construction time and funds, is going to make maintaining a permanent manned presence in space a huge drain on resources. If life support and construction time were added as stock features to the game, the first thing I would do in my save is fly to each of my manned facilities and bring everyone home, and just leave them as unmanned facilities. To me, that would be a shame, and would make the game less interesting, but it would be necessary to remove the endless grind of repeated supply missions.

The devs have stated that the purpose of Career is supped to be a space program management game. In that case, what you are complaining about is… managing a space program. It seems to me that what you want is in effect sandbox. To be fair, the devs have left out the oct critical element of the management component, which is people to manage. I'd want to set up a resupply schedule, design (and test fly) the resupply craft, then have them happen by themselves. THAT would be space program management. If I had a budget, then I'd have to weigh keeping many facilities resupplied vs doing other missions (which might drive taking commercial contracts to pay or some stuff). This would add many gameplay choices for the player.

[JumpsterG]

I've been doing just that with 64X… You need to bring a lot with you (as it should be).

The solution to resupply would be for your pilots to be able to pilot, then set up recurring missions they could do themselves (resupply).

I don't see that solution being easily implemented, but yes, that would solve the resupply problem nicely. The funds leaking from regular payouts (and launching the automated resupplies) is still a big issue though, requiring numerous contract fulfillments near kerbin to fund deeper exploration. I suppose this counts as progression in a way, but it just feels like grinding to me. Truth be told, a simple difficulty slider (yet again) would allow players to choose just how grindy they want it and would allow this feature to work.

The devs have stated that the purpose of Career is supped to be a space program management game. In that case, what you are complaining about is… managing a space program. It seems to me that what you want is in effect sandbox. To be fair, the devs have left out the oct critical element of the management component, which is people to manage. I'd want to set up a resupply schedule, design (and test fly) the resupply craft, then have them happen by themselves. THAT would be space program management. If I had a budget, then I'd have to weigh keeping many facilities resupplied vs doing other missions (which might drive taking commercial contracts to pay or some stuff). This would add many gameplay choices for the player.

I will grant you that. The management/tycoon game elements are lacking and I'd like to see them implemented in a good way. I guess I'm afraid to let career mode become Kerbal "Low-Orbit, Mun, and Minmus" Program. Interplanetary activities are already difficult for beginning (and some intermediate) players. Making players split their attention away from any interplanetary mission to do more Kerbin system stuff just sounds like it would suck the fun away.

I believe there are solutions to this problem. An infrastructure system to generate revenue streams, automated resupply missions, life support that allows for "when-you-feel-like-it" resupply missions (roverdude has an interesting mod that will be released after 1.0 like this). Whatever is done to bring more management to the game, the systems need to be fully fleshed out and not just impose a regular funds sink or hard penalty for neglecting flights in progress.

[gmiddlemass]

No thanks... I like being able to warp whenever i want. This would just drain the fun out of it.

[Twreed87]

Have any of you done a mission to Eeloo or Jool lately? You realize it takes months and years of in-game time. If your life support on a station or funds will run out after time warping only a month, you're going to be spending a LOT of time doing mini-missions around Kerbin. After the 4th or 5th identical resupply mission in a row, wouldn't you get tired of it?

A Kerbal Alarm Clock system would make it manageable, but these systems turn the game into a hamster wheel, grinding funds and lifting supplies repeatedly instead of doing missions you want to do.

A Jool mission would just require you to bring a lot of life support with you. This would, of course, also be an option for a space station. Essentially you could decide how often you need to resupply your station, based on the size of containers you bring. Also, self-sustaining should be possible on certain worlds, perhaps tied into ISRU. Add Water as another resource like Ore that can be used to generate Snacks.

[Joonatan1998]

If properly balanced and impplemented system like this could actually be fun.

1. 1-click timewarp to launch in VAB

2. Warping the few years for an Eeloo/Jool mission shouldn't require you to constantly do something else to avoid bankrupcy, it could make you loose money but not too much, at most require the player to do one thing between jool launch and arrival.

3. Jool/Eeloo should have rewards that make them worth the cost of getting there, at the moment there just isn't an ingame reason to ever go there.

4. Difficulty options:

lifesupport on/off

Some options to adjust the money gained/lost over time, and the rate the money gain decays if you do nothing.

Construction time on/off (or maybe a slider)

Science over time slider

5. Simulations could be nice with construction time, especially if playing without revert.

[eightiesboi]

Having played with the KCT and TAC-LS mods, I can say that having construction take time and having to plan for life support enhances my game quite a bit. These are on my list for first mods to add back into stock after 1.0.

[Tw1]

- Yearly budgets. In addition to contracts, you get a bit each year. Perhaps you lose it if you don't use it. Or maybe it's based on how much you did the last year.

- Science over time. I know we're getting some of that in 1.0 with the changes to the Mobile Lab. Perhaps more? Orbital scanners and things?

- Life support. This could be a big one. If you've got an orbital station that needs regular resupply, you can't just warp a whole year to the next Duna launch window.

I favour the idea that budget would be based on what you did in the last year. This way, it could be set up to add extra sense of purpose to many space exploration type things that the game doesn't do very well.

If done well, it could provide players with reasons to go to places they've already collected all the science points from, other than just doing contracts they've been asked to do.

This blog post summarises an approach to time based budget I came up with, with those ideas in mind.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/entries/3444-An-aproach-to-Time-based-funding

A set budget that you can't go over per year could work too, though I do think the yearly payment approach would fit in a little better.

Either way, what's important is how it's earnt.

Budget could simply be tied to reputation, which could be made to decrees if there are long periods of inactivity, but I don't see that working to well with the current reputation and strategies system. Plus, it misses out on the opportunity to reward many more things in a more complex way.

I think the idea of life support and construction time are interesting for a particular play style, but are quite damaging to others. If what you want to do is just run one single big mission to a particular location, then bring it home, then start on the next one, then these ideas are going to add a dimension to the challenge.

I agree, but this is why we have different game modes.

It might be possible to play like that in this sort of game mode, if you're careful, and keep missions low cost.

However, this mode will support a fairly different playstyle- for those that want a full space program experience, rather than just being designer and pilot.

Have any of you done a mission to Eeloo or Jool lately? You realize it takes months and years of in-game time.

If your life support on a station or funds will run out after time warping only a month, you're going to be spending a LOT of time doing mini-missions around Kerbin

I don't think this will necessary be a bad thing. The fact that missions to outer planets take a long time is something real space program must face.

It's also a matter of balance- it should be possible to accrue enough funds in a reasonable amount of time, for a reasonable amount of effort.

The funding issue is something a successful space program must address. It's a matter of cost benefit- if the things you're doing are costing more than they are worth, it's time to change something. If a mission to Jool is not financially viable, then other options, like downsizing the mission, or saving up some more first make sense.

These are all challenges we'd need to face to become successful space program directors.

Plus, it does make sense to do a few other missions while waiting for a Jool mission to arrive- if time is a factor you'll have a lot more reason to pace yourself, and make some use of your time.

I believe there are solutions to this problem. An infrastructure system to generate revenue streams, automated resupply missions, life support that allows for "when-you-feel-like-it" resupply missions (roverdude has an interesting mod that will be released after 1.0 like this). Whatever is done to bring more management to the game, the systems need to be fully fleshed out and not just impose a regular funds sink or hard penalty for neglecting flights in progress.

I definitely agree. Lifesupport should be simple, and balanced so bringing enough is only a real challenge when you need a few years worth.

Made this ages ago. Perhaps the amount of time lifesupport would last for should be higher. Air and water can be recycled, so the life support resource should be treated like food, if anything.

Add some ability to replenish life support using ISRU, and you could have bases which are self-sufficient, or even serve as supply centres for other missions.

Collectors and recyclers should be heavy enough that they only become a the better option for big missions.

Collectors should barely work in most places, work at low rates in others, and fastest on planets which are closest to habitable.

I think the best way to do automated supply missions would be to abstract them completely.

This would avoid a lot of complications that arise the automated flights had to be fully simulated by the game.

You'd have to demonstrate it was possible, ( save something like extra planetary launchpads being added, demonstrate that missions that don't start from KSC can be done with a reusable vessel.)

But then, every so often, a certain amount of resource (plus fuel) would disappear from a tanks on one vessel, (Or be purchased at KSC) and appear later in the tanks of another.

Time taken, fuel needed, amount delivered, (vessel cost for KSC launches), could all be determined by your demonstration run, and the nature of available transfer windows.

This could be thought of as contracting out your re-supply missions to another agency, or perhaps you must set aside skilled pilots of your own to do it. Either way, there should be a fair payment needed to have a flight happen without doing it yourself.

I also think it would be great to have more things that happen while you are warping- that would make the time you've fast forwarded through seem a lot less wasted.

For example, kerbals in bases, stations could get offered contracts to perform research. Scientists left in one place for a very long time could collect small extra bits of science (up until a point) on their own. It wouldn't be worth much, you'd get more leaving them in a science lab, but it would be better than them being idle all that time.

But there always should be reasons to go and do things yourself.

Lastly, I don't think any of this could really work without something like kerbal alarm clock. Otherwise, there'd be too much to think about.

You need to be able to set some warnings for when a you need to pay attention to a ship, if something is finished, or if something is starting to run out of life support.

[Instresu]

The only time management I would love to see is slow motion. Right now, the Time Control mod does exactly that.