Resource Mining - Impressions and Questions

[Wintersdark]

Have you used the Narrow Band Scanner to see exact concentrations near you?

The instant scan just shows averages per biome, if I understand correctly, while the surface scanner shows the location at the pinpoint your at; the NBS shows the local area so you can find better concentrations nearby.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Wintersdark

[Beowolf]

@SlabGizor117 - here it is in one paragraph ...

All these people complaining about your design decisions made me want to complain about what's important: THAT WAS SEVEN PARAGRAPHS!

Thanks for the tutorial. Was just trying my first ISRU test and needed it.

[Beowolf]

But even then, somebody will make a mod that solves the problem and we're back to a rocket with more parts and the computer wasting resources while providing exactly nothing that enhances gameplay. People want to fly rockets, after all, not stare at gauges and tweak valves to keep everything in the green. So again, the bottom line is, not a great game design decision to force players to worry about heat.

Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but "people" want lots of different, often conflicting, things. I personally find flying rockets by-hand silly and boring. IMO, it turns a cool sim into an arcade game, which isn't a bad thing but is something I'm not into. The game I play is about managing a space program's needs vs. resources. Luckily, KSP's flexible enough to meet both our needs.

KSP players come in several different types, and you're only speaking for the group you happen to agree with. Please don't assume "people" all agree with you...about anything...ever. They don't.

Hey, Squad! Thanks for limits on electricity, fuel, intake air, and now heat, ore, and wind shear. That kinda stuff is the reason I'm still playing after two years. I learned how to make a rocket go anywhere I wanted hundreds of launches ago, but I'm still here.

Incidentally, getting rid of all those limits is as simple as editing some .cfg files. So if you don't like the complexity, fix it then share your changes as a mod for others who feel the same way.

[tja]

@RoverDude:

maybe u can help me here.

for my bootstrap-via-asteroid project i would like to make a smaller size (1/2) drill via modulemanager.

i can successfull 1/3 power consumption but how could i 1/3 the ore output and the rate it consumes potatoroids ?

+PART[RadialDrill]
{
	@name = RadialDrillSmall
	@title = 'Drill-O-Matic' Mining Excavator Small Size
	@rescaleFactor = 0.5
	@cost = 2000
	@mass = 0.1
	@MODULE,*
	{
		@INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			@Ratio = 5
		}
	}
}

thx in advance.

[radonek]

Hey, Squad! Thanks for limits on electricity, fuel, intake air, and now heat, ore, and wind shear.

I'll second that.

[huntingpickel]

WHY IS THE CONVERTER SO DAMN BIG? I know the real life counterpart to resource mining is very hard to make mobile but this isn't real life. Just make a smaller option for us Squad. Admittedly though, you can use Tweak Scale to make the converter and drill smaller but then the speed and efficiency is just nerfed. This is really my only complaint with the 1.0 version of KSP. Everything else is baically perfect.

[Prepper-Jack]

Speaking for myself: I really do like the mining and refining mechanics of the game so far.

If I had to change anything, however, it would be to bring back some level of detail for those who want a more "realistic" experience - and put it in the higher difficulty levels. So, in effect, "Hard" mode players would have to contend with taking their time in scanning a planet/moon (with associated course variations as needed), and dealing with issues of heat waste from mining, conversion, and solar radiation. That is, as long as parts are included to counteract such things. Such things present an engineering/design challenge (and in the scanning, a navigational one) that make the game a bit more difficult, and less grindy than the current way hard mode is presented to us (higher risk, lower reward).

[Vehrmark_Kristoff]

Well, I guess this shall be my first post on the forum out of a number of posts working towards a long term project for modelling a dynamic economy and resource dependent 'Kerbal civilization.' (Yes, a long one but I'm not very good at compressing my ideas or concerns.)

Intro: Firstly to some extent I would agree with Prepper-Jack's idea of adding a hard mode as for the most part for me it has seemed that each Kethane and the current stock resource mechanics which actually for a bit excited me each cater to certain ideals I would want in my own experience of KSP resources but sadly each lacks in the other. I guess to quickly state, when I first found out about the mod, I liked the idea of Kethane allowing you to scan the surface with proper polar configured satellites and with the addition of RemoteTech2, such gave a purpose to the construction of satellite missions for me. (I personally have been playing KSP since grade 9 and after a good three years have never really got into career mode or any long term meaningful missions either due to concentration on other things or having some other ideals for additional gameplay mechanics.) Number one, the thought of ever being able to go far enough with a Kerbal civilization as to have completely depleted all remaining Kethane resources intrigued me and gave me the same 'literary fascination effect' when I first read about that Eternal War thread where someone managed to run a Civ 2 game for more than 10 years. I'd guess that some people wouldn't like having to always move around so much, but maybe if each reservoir took a similar amount of time as it would take to exhaust a real world oil reserve.

My ideals on resource systems: Apart from that, the main concerns that made me look towards resource implementing mods on KSP was my endeavors on developing a large set of rules through which to manage the economy and resource extraction projects of a full fledged Kerbal Civilization. Basically one thing I felt that was hindering my creativity or drive in the production of KSP rocket designs was the lack of a meaningful purpose for myself. As in as always for the most part independent of actual rocket launches and the time spent during missions people don't really tend to seem to care so much about where the time goes for a 'virtual rocket design team' to produce plans. As in yes the emphasis is on immediate satisfaction for your Kerbal execution needs but what about that small niche of folks looking deeper into realism? So parts of my ideas were finding my own ways independent of me having to program my own mods (more due to laziness because I have indeed taken grade 11 and 12 computer science for Java) to implement things like the training of design personnel, enlistment of ground geologists and performances of ground surveys for securing logistical resource pathways necessary prior to even being able to launch your first satellite. As in what if aside from the desire to enjoy the harder parts of resource extraction were mixed with a set of game mechanics that didn't limit resource extraction to MKS TAC-LS survival and mere interplanetary refueling but also gave in the added challenge of actually having to spend all the money and Kerbal labour for mining/refining enough metal and going through all the stages to produce just one rocket?

Limitations on implementing it myself: So pretty much what I see in the present game and mod ideals is mostly the notion of a pure space program that operates under a government and after that all things that happen behind the scenes like management of resource transportation routes and organization of various materials processing and manufacturing companies is 'intentionally' ignored for the sake of the more common niche and we merely slap onto these rockets fixed product costs excluding the ridiculous quantities of logistics operations that would actually be required under realistic circumstances. Of course I am aware of the whole notion of far fetched realism demands and the computational complexity of things like actually simulating cities as both abstract and physical models in KSP but this comes as introduction to my concerns associated with an idea whose realization as a 'separate full fledged mod' would otherwise be delayed as long as I continue postponing securing some better resources on KSP modding to give me the same degrees of freedom and design complexity I can happily achieve with Java.

How I was planning to do it ('very condensed'): Sooo, despite that little rant I merely used it to eventually introduce the basis for this whole idea of a gameplay I'm trying to achieve where basically using stock mechanics and mods like MKS plus Kethane, RemoteTech2, TAC-LS, KAS and Ferram I would start off by setting up a colony of Kerbal individuals with extra stats and traits I will record and 'process' either on paper or on a separate Java application of my own implementation. And in this colony you would begin by setting up a self sustaining MKS ground base near KSC, some administration mediated by the Kerbal Civilizations gameplay rule set I am developing as well as a Kethane or mined fuel based currency system where you literally 'spend' money or conduct resource transactions limiting the construction of your next launch at a financial land-situated 'burning facility'. We use free fuel to mine 'not so free' fuel, but what if in some alternative mode fuel was never free? Hence some of the stages a player wanting to experience a 'hard mode' for would have to go to is starting off running a surface colony and establishing funds to commence the first land solar powered resource surveys. Then after finding some close by but not so abundant resources using logistic chains they could fund fuel for faster spaceplane surveying that could eventually lead to have the resources for your first rocket launch. Imagine what pride a KSP masochist could muster up in having had had to have gone through all that abstracted administration, resource harvesting and logistics operations just to launch their civilization's first orbital survey satellite? So some extent as per my game mechanics ideals economy, resource logistics, administration and infrastructure should verily precede the launching of any space vessel. Land surveys and then satellite surveys for the sake of cartography or large scale geological resource survey. But I bet man was able to locate an oil well a good time before we were even able to hit the air.

What Kethane and stock resources both sacrifice: Pretty much as per that, my first attempt at testing some of these Kerbal Civilizations gameplay features involved flying for long periods of time a spaceplane equipped with a Kethane scanner hoping to find at least one deposit on the local continent. This is where I hit the first limitations of Kethanes on my 'niche gameplay' as it is: discreet and perhaps mostly randomized resource deposits. Or when the prospect of long term land surveying expeditions start becoming more irksome. From this I liked the idea of Karbonite or stock mechanics allowing you to mine virtually anywhere but with limited efficiency and concentration as if different areas all have the resource but in ways possessing varying difficulty and magnitude of extraction. But despite Karbonite and stock resource system for the most part giving me the resource mechanics I would have really hoped for, it basically ended up removing the features I wanted to keep from Kethane (this could be negated if an only if I were to find a way to use SCANsat appropriately for my 'realistic scanning' needs and if from what I've heard surface scanners for people who just want to be useful geologists didn't depend on filling the space requirement.). But indeed two niches and the still yet uncatered meld between the two.

Yeah just as we don't necessarily want a 'Kerbal Boat Program' (despite my past prospects of 'glorious' sailing across Kerbin oceans on long 'economic' Kethane freighter voyages) or a 'Kerbal Economy Program/Civilization Tycoon' or 'Kerbal Oil Company Simulator,' these were just niche ideas I've lately been trying to satisfy for myself.

So that's that and I look forward to hearing what you guy have to say.

[Trogdor!]

I am very late to this party, but as a person who's both dumped 600 hours into this game and has yet to install a single mod (I like to play the game the devs intended), I did have some confusion on how mining, scanning, and resources worked.

I understand roverdude's reasoning and explanation, and they make a certain amount of sense. Usually in this game I try and experiment with things as intuitively as possible, and the whole scanning process is a bit less intuitive than I'd have liked.

I had assumed, starting out, that I'd have to figure out some kind of scanning orbit, and eventually I'd get a whole map of the planet. Once I realized polar scanning was instant I was a bit disappointed because there was less reward for the effort expended than I expected, but it made a certain kind of sense, because really, all you're doing is finding out what the general concentration is in a biome. What you are not doing with the high level orbital scanner is getting any sort of spatially accurate information. The overlay you get from this is essentially a starter kit at this point. If I'd had my druthers, I'd wish the requirement would be for the probe to complete one polar orbit, or at least an animation, but whatevs. Not a terribly big deal.

After I figured all that out, my next intuitive assumption was that since there was no sort of accurate map with the orbital scanner, that job would then fall to the narrow band scanner. Now that you got some extremely generalized information, you'd narrow things down a bit, and your orbital overlay would turn more into a map, which would require you to get into a proper scanning orbit and do some very simplistic, but at least some sort of analogue to reality legwork. Here is where my biggest confusion and immersion break came from.

Why is there no usable, discoverable, viewable detailed map? Without it, finding the perfect mining spot is very frustrating.

After some searching at this point, I found out that in order to get some detail to the little gui window, you had to land and take samples. This makes proper intuitive sense once you realize what the surface scanner's job is. Getting more and more accurate information should take more and more work.

What still bugs the crap out of me though, is after you do all this work to drill down to the most accurate information you can get, you have no way to save your work. Which rewards all your effort with a slap in the face. This is worse than nothing. Your effort/reward ratio at this point is negative. Your GUI window is all you really have, and you just constantly throw that data away. No space program worth their salt would ever just trash useful data. It's not like storing data is hard. Just ask nasa.

The progression I would personally like to see with resource scanning goes something like this

Step 1. Get into a polar orbit, run the scanner for exactly 1 orbit. (this gives you an extremely basic idea of what's out there because you're zoomed all the way out) (small reward for decent effort, but that's fine because it's the first step on the journey.)

Step 2. Get a surface scanner on the ground to get biome information (this gives you a much better idea of where stuff is, but you still got work to do, because your zoom level is way too close,)

Step 3. Get a narrow band scanner in a close realistic scanning orbit, and get a slowly revealing map. (Once you have the general and the specific, then you have the happy medium complete picture. This also gives you the bonus of your polar satellite not being a single use craft with very small reward for all the effort it takes to get it there, and it teaches us plebs about actual satellite scanning mechanics in the real world. Most effort/Highest reward)

I realize roverdude wrote his own resource mod and wants people to use it, and as much poorly articulated crap as he's received in this thread he may have already made up his mind and dug his heels in on this, but this is a non-modder's take on stock game gameplay. I don't have all the preconceived notions of how a certain thing should be because it was like x in y mod. My preconceived notions are all based on what happens in real science, and I think my proposed progression would both make more intuitive sense, and be more rewarding gameplay wise. Half the fun of KSP is learning all the things you didn't know about rocket science. Yes, I realize this game oversimplifies everything about space exploration, but it should at least not be the opposite of reality.

My take on the scanning system is that it's a great start, but it needs some tweaking to make it more fun/rewarding.

[Wintersdark]

It is the way it is due to design decisions expressed in this thread. Fortunately, the developers intended this game to be modded (and even hired modders to extend it - this whole system was born of a mod).

There is a mod, a small, easy to add mod, that adds EXACTLY what you want:

ScanSat.

This is WHY the game can be modded: what you want, what I want, what each other person wants? It's all different. Squad makes decisions as to what the default, base game is; then leaves us the tools to adapt it to suit our preferences.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep in mind, these two statements are at odds:

"I want to play the game the developers intended, without mods. "

"I want this thing I don't like changed about the game."

[Coga19000]

Squad generally seems to be trying to compensate for its unexpected and abrupt ISRU implementation by making it as user-friendly as balance will allow. The Scanner in a polar orbit would eventually scan the whole Kerbin anyways, so they decided to spare us the time-warping in expense of realism. Also, they got the Karbonite route instead of the Kethane route in that the resources are infinite. In exchange, they gave us a single, bulky Convertor to make Conversion Sites harder to make, but they also gave us the convenience of the new Ore resource being able to make literally any kind of fuel.

Anyways, it all boils down to the casual rocketeer's convenience, and more-or-less balanced gameplay. This is also why more advanced plkayers are still free to download a more sophisticated mod and either never use the stock parts again, or outright delete them.

[Edax]

I am very late to this party, but as a person who's both dumped 600 hours into this game and has yet to install a single mod (I like to play the game the devs intended), I did have some confusion on how mining, scanning, and resources worked.

I understand roverdude's reasoning and explanation, and they make a certain amount of sense. Usually in this game I try and experiment with things as intuitively as possible, and the whole scanning process is a bit less intuitive than I'd have liked.

I had assumed, starting out, that I'd have to figure out some kind of scanning orbit, and eventually I'd get a whole map of the planet. Once I realized polar scanning was instant I was a bit disappointed because there was less reward for the effort expended than I expected, but it made a certain kind of sense, because really, all you're doing is finding out what the general concentration is in a biome. What you are not doing with the high level orbital scanner is getting any sort of spatially accurate information. The overlay you get from this is essentially a starter kit at this point. If I'd had my druthers, I'd wish the requirement would be for the probe to complete one polar orbit, or at least an animation, but whatevs. Not a terribly big deal.

After I figured all that out, my next intuitive assumption was that since there was no sort of accurate map with the orbital scanner, that job would then fall to the narrow band scanner. Now that you got some extremely generalized information, you'd narrow things down a bit, and your orbital overlay would turn more into a map, which would require you to get into a proper scanning orbit and do some very simplistic, but at least some sort of analogue to reality legwork. Here is where my biggest confusion and immersion break came from.

Why is there no usable, discoverable, viewable detailed map? Without it, finding the perfect mining spot is very frustrating.

After some searching at this point, I found out that in order to get some detail to the little gui window, you had to land and take samples. This makes proper intuitive sense once you realize what the surface scanner's job is. Getting more and more accurate information should take more and more work.

What still bugs the crap out of me though, is after you do all this work to drill down to the most accurate information you can get, you have no way to save your work. Which rewards all your effort with a slap in the face. This is worse than nothing. Your effort/reward ratio at this point is negative. Your GUI window is all you really have, and you just constantly throw that data away. No space program worth their salt would ever just trash useful data. It's not like storing data is hard. Just ask nasa.

The progression I would personally like to see with resource scanning goes something like this

Step 1. Get into a polar orbit, run the scanner for exactly 1 orbit. (this gives you an extremely basic idea of what's out there because you're zoomed all the way out) (small reward for decent effort, but that's fine because it's the first step on the journey.)

Step 2. Get a surface scanner on the ground to get biome information (this gives you a much better idea of where stuff is, but you still got work to do, because your zoom level is way too close,)

Step 3. Get a narrow band scanner in a close realistic scanning orbit, and get a slowly revealing map. (Once you have the general and the specific, then you have the happy medium complete picture. This also gives you the bonus of your polar satellite not being a single use craft with very small reward for all the effort it takes to get it there, and it teaches us plebs about actual satellite scanning mechanics in the real world. Most effort/Highest reward)

I realize roverdude wrote his own resource mod and wants people to use it, and as much poorly articulated crap as he's received in this thread he may have already made up his mind and dug his heels in on this, but this is a non-modder's take on stock game gameplay. I don't have all the preconceived notions of how a certain thing should be because it was like x in y mod. My preconceived notions are all based on what happens in real science, and I think my proposed progression would both make more intuitive sense, and be more rewarding gameplay wise. Half the fun of KSP is learning all the things you didn't know about rocket science. Yes, I realize this game oversimplifies everything about space exploration, but it should at least not be the opposite of reality.

My take on the scanning system is that it's a great start, but it needs some tweaking to make it more fun/rewarding.

It's rather crude, but you can just have a Kerbal plant a flag on all the richest deposits of ore you find. Still, it's kinda disappointing that the flag you use as a monument of your greatest achievements, are also used as mundane ore markers. Maybe just a simple flashing beacon that engineers can place would be more appropriate? Should be simple enough to implement.

[SAI Peregrinus]

The way I do it is to have a small rover/biome hopper that lands carrying a narrow band scanner and a surface scanner. I drive it around until it's at a high concentration of ore, and then I swap to the miner, target the rover, and land nearby. I supplement this with the SCANSat mod, so I can get very nice detailed maps instead of just biome maps and a temporary popup window.

[Trogdor!]

"I want this thing I don't like changed about the game."

So your point is, what? Never make suggestions? Never file bug reports? I'm not saying it sucks, I'm saying it could be improved upon from a gameplay perspective, and make a better and more rewarding game. That's why I responded in a thread titled 'impressions'. Frankly I'm much happier seeing them direct most of the current work to unity migration than anything else, but I thought I'd give my thoughts on a newly introduced game mechanic and it's relation to good game design, because that might be something that a game developer is interested in.