Keeping orientation during re-entry?

[-Velocity-]

OK, so I did some searching and found out about the heatshield "fix" (changing the physics significance to 0, which apparently actually makes them physically significant). This is NOT about that. Apparently, I'm the only person who has had no problem with using the Mk1 command pod without a heat shield (it seems to survive just fine for me, and I've got all the difficulty settings on max except for being able to revert flights and quicksave/quickload). Which is definitely strange...

ANYWAY my real question is this- what can we do to help orient ourselves during re-entry without resorting to ridiculous "cheats' like deploying parachutes early? For example, last night I had this spacecraft:

Parachute-> Mk1 command pod -> Science bay -> Service bay (with four goo modules inside it)

The service bay has a built-in heat shield apparently and so it does not require a heat shield (I've done re-entry from the Mun with it at 3000 m/s.... yea, no heat shield is required at all).

What happened was as soon as I got above about 2 gs of deceleration, the craft got almost impossible to orient correctly- it would flip around with the command pod facing INTO the atmosphere and explode in like five seconds. After several tries, I just spammed the staging button in desperation, and to my surprise, the parachute popped out in drogue mode, the craft decelerated at like 20gs, and Jeb's life was saved. Obviously, this is not realistic, and I hate it (using parachutes like this during re-entry).

Obviously, the craft is too draggy on the bottom, and too heavy on the top so an aft-end first approach is highly unstable.

So my question is this- what can I do to help me orient crafts correctly? In the case of the above vessel, I can think of some simple solutions

Parachute ->Science bay -> Service Bay -> Mk1 command pod

^^This would probably move the CoM enough toward the aft end to allow me to keep control of the craft.

BUT that's beside the point. There will be other craft that are far more complex that I need to keep proper orientation on.

So can I use fins, or will they burn up? At this point in career mode, I just got access to my first fins. However, such fins may make ascent much more unstable (because they will be on the top). I still have that stupid VAB that limits me to only 30 parts.

When I get these airbrake parts, can I use those, or will they burn up?

Basically, is there some kind of draggy part that doesn't burn up easily that I can use on the top of my craft to help orient it during re-entry, or do I need to fiddle around with the CoM instead?

[Chiodo]

Try this:

Use a pilot that can point to Retrograde, or a probe and a good SAS module to point retrograde during the re-entry, if it helps use RCS.

Do NOT perform a vertical re-entry, try to bounce gently on the air drawing a curve in the sky: more heat time but less G

[eddiew]

Parachutes are remarkably resilient at this time... you could try kicking out a drogue chute from the top end at 30km. Or airbrakes, which are exactly that kind of draggy part that you're asking about

[federicoaa]

Yep, the problem with trying to reentry with the pod ans the service bay below is that the CoM stays in the pod, but as the craft is longer it becomes very unstable. I recomend to remove the experiments and reentry with the pod only. You loose some money but make things easier.

Also having a leveled-up pilot helps a lot since (s)he can keep it under control for you.

[Bedwyr]

Also, don't forget about the larger 22km physics range. Maybe you could break them up into two heat shielded modules part way through reentry with their own parachutes. That would be interesting to flight test with a probe core on the Science Jr/Service Module combination.

[SpeedDaemon]

What we really need are some streamers we can pop high up that don't generate 20Gs, but just give a little drag to keep pointed straight. Or maybe an upgraded parachute part that's two/three stages (drogue/chute and/or streamer/drogue/chute).

[-Velocity-]

Also, don't forget about the larger 22km physics range. Maybe you could break them up into two heat shielded modules part way through reentry with their own parachutes. That would be interesting to flight test with a probe core on the Science Jr/Service Module combination.

Huh? 22 km physics range? Do you mean the load limit is now like 20/22 km instead of 2.25/2.5 km?! If so, that's great.

[EtherDragon]

There is a bug fix in progress for the Heat Shield issue, where it adds it's mass incorrectly - making craft less stable instead of more stable during reentry. (The communities expectation is a big heavy heat shield should shift the CoM sufficiently to contribute to the stability of the reentering ship...)

In the mean time, a couple different ways to tackle this:

1. Upgrade the Astronaught Complex to unlock EVAs. Then, you can EVA to recover all experimental data and pack it away in the Command Module. Decouple from the (now empty) experiments, and let them burn. Have the Command Module (with a chute only) and reenter with all your experiments on board - win.

2. A route I want to experiment with is putting separate heat shield and recovery chutes on the experiments. Deorbit the whole thing, and then separate for reentry. Hopefully both halves will be recoverable.

[Bedwyr]

Huh? 22 km physics range? Do you mean the load limit is now like 20/22 km instead of 2.25/2.5 km?! If so, that's great.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/115072-Devnote-Tuesdays-The-Late-Edition

See note on physics bubble. I don't know if it's far enough for two objects to fly to surface from a low reentry altitude, but it's a thought.

[-Velocity-]

Well, if tell a probe core or a pilot to point the nose towards the retrograde surface velocity vector, will they keep doing it even if we press "[" or "]" to cycle to a nearby controlled craft? I know Mechjeb used to work like that, but what about stock "AI"?

But... yea... EVA is not an option at this point in my career. Upgrading the VAB, launchpad, tracking station, and whatever else is required for maneuver nodes is more important (IM(very strong)O, vital core game interface mechanics like maneuver nodes and action groups should ALWAYS be available... while they're at it, why don't they make time compression or game sounds stuff that has to be unlocked, too LOL... but that's another topic...).

Edited April 29, 2015 by |Velocity|

[falloutaddict]

Try the lander can and put the science bay on top.

[Snakedoctor15]

If you use SAS it maintains the orientation, as well as when the chute deploys drag will keep proper orientation.

(IM(very strong)O, vital core game interface mechanics like maneuver nodes and action groups should ALWAYS be available... while they're at it, why don't they make time compression or game sounds stuff that has to be unlocked, too LOL... but that's another topic...).

I understand the "you start with nothing mentality" and while I'm can work with it and can do maneuvers with out creating a node, new player cannot so I understand that it should probably be always unlocked. Al least with the World Records you get more money for upgrading facility's. I personally like having everything locked but I would also agree with having 1 or 2 action groups unlocked to start with and them upgrade to get more.