Engineers and dV

[soulsource]

I just remembered, that at some point there was this. Now, as 1.0 is here, I can't seem to find it mentioned in the changelog. I'm wondering, is this feature in the game?

If yes: where?

If not, has there been any official statement from SQUAD why?

(Please note: I don't want this thread to veer off into a discussion if it is/would be a nice feature. We've had that already...)

[Rokmonkey]

I was wondering the exact same thing. I wonder if they were talking about the readout in map view when you press the little I, that tells you estimated time until 0m/s whatever that means. Since I couldn't find it, I put Kerbal Engineer back in.

[basic.syntax]

dV readouts feature needed more work and has been delayed, but it should appear, in a future update.

"It's been a couple hectic weeks at Squad. we've been working hard on getting the update out...[snip] we talked about reducing the number of features in order to actually give proper time to bug fixing and all that...[snip] I am not 100% sure that we can put in the UI elements that we want to do for the Kerbal skills, so you can see delta-v for example..."

[soulsource]

Ok, thanks a lot. That's all I wanted to know.

[Domfluff]

It's not implemented yet, but it's still supposed to be in the game sometime in the future.

As an aside, one thing I am expecting at some point is a stock method for interplanetary trajectories - at the moment, you either need to do the maths yourself, look up the phase angle/etc. or install a mod - I can easily imagine this being part of the game, and possibly a Scientist or Engineer ability.

[r_rolo1]

Answering the OP questions...

No this feature is not in game at the moment

Yes, Maxmaps explained in one Squadcast before release that the feature they wanted to implement was not fleshed out enough for their taste for the 1.0 release, so it would be postponed for later.

[X-SR71]

Stock KSP should really have dV values for ships, even if it's a simple total vacuum value. We should not have to rely on mods (or own math) for such basic information.

[malkuth]

Stock KSP should really have dV values for ships, even if it's a simple total vacuum value. We should not have to rely on mods (or own math) for such basic information.

Its one of the things I have always disagreed with the developers on. At one point they were against any type of delta-V type reading on vessels. They thought the charm of testing and resting and explosions and failures was the kerbal way!

The problem with that of course is that once you added money and contracts to the equation that no longer became the case. Launches cost money in Campaign game, without some sort of Delva-V readout on what the vessel can do makes the game frustrating. Unless of course you just revert over and over until its right which compared to a simple DV readout can't see how thats more FUN than just knowing what the vessel can do. LOL.

With Aerodynamics not only is Delta-V important but so is TWR!

From a programming prospective the thing is all this stuff is in the game already.. They already did the math on most of it (that's how engineer gets its information) its just not available to the player!

The feature they want to add sounds like its a trait of an Engineer kerbal. Which still does not help with construction of vessels. Readouts in flight are not as important as readout while building.

Edited April 30, 2015 by malkuth

[klgraham1013]

In my opinion, knowing your TWR is just as important as knowing your center of lift. It's to bad Squad waited for 1.0 to start work on such vital parts of rocket engineering as delta V and TWR readouts.

[r_rolo1]

From a programming prospective the thing is all this stuff is in the game already.. They already did the math on most of it (that's how engineer gets its information) its just not available to the player!

The worst thing is that the game already makes almost all the calculations needed for determining the dV of a ship, mostly as part of the manouver nodes mechanics ( especially the time for the burn ) and if you are diligent enough, you can pick the few numbers already displayed on screen and reverse engineer them to get atleast the current stage dV. But for some reason, giving that particular number to the player ( atleast without sending one kerbonault to Eve or Duna, that is what they were suggesting in the proposal the OP refers to ) would be evil

[X-SR71]

I'd settle for a simple total vacuum dV on VAB when building. Engineers could detail each stage's dV in flight..

[LostOblivion]

Delta-v and TWR. Both should be there.

[WafflesToo]

I'm with you, I was hoping for some additional instrumentation options in-game for TWR, dV, and Orbital Parameters (at least Apo and Peri information) from the main screen (instead of having to switch to map screen). I really don't mind having to hand-calculate dV and TWR too much during the design stage, but it seems like it would be relatively simple to implement.

Good thing Kerbal Engineer exists.

[Kerr_]

To people talking about TWR - its so simple...

10 units of thrust = 1 unit of mass.

Rocket with 300 thrust? can lift a vessel up to 30 tones.

I'm glad they added a weight readout XD

[NovaSilisko]

Its one of the things I have always disagreed with the developers on. At one point they were against any type of delta-V type reading on vessels. They thought the charm of testing and resting and explosions and failures was the kerbal way!

The problem with that of course is that once you added money and contracts to the equation that no longer became the case. Launches cost money in Campaign game, without some sort of Delva-V readout on what the vessel can do makes the game frustrating. Unless of course you just revert over and over until its right which compared to a simple DV readout can't see how thats more FUN than just knowing what the vessel can do. LOL.

With Aerodynamics not only is Delta-V important but so is TWR!

From a programming prospective the thing is all this stuff is in the game already.. They already did the math on most of it (that's how engineer gets its information) its just not available to the player!

The feature they want to add sounds like its a trait of an Engineer kerbal. Which still does not help with construction of vessels. Readouts in flight are not as important as readout while building.

Agree 100%. I have never really gotten the viewpoint that having a delta-v meter in particular or detailed engineering info in general somehow makes it impossible to improvise and goof off in the game, as has been implied by statements in the past. Just hope that's reconsidered, I think it's really important to the game, for the reasons you specified.

[klgraham1013]

To people talking about TWR - its so simple...

10 units of thrust = 1 unit of mass.

Rocket with 300 thrust? can lift a vessel up to 30 tones.

I'm glad they added a weight readout XD

...and, just as you can now glance at a readout to know your weight, I'd like to be able to glance at a readout to know my TWR.

edit: Thanks for the advice, though. I'm not saying it's not good to know. I'm just saying that most of the excuses don't fly with me.

Edited April 30, 2015 by klgraham1013

[r_rolo1]

To people talking about TWR - its so simple...

10 units of thrust = 1 unit of mass.

Rocket with 300 thrust? can lift a vessel up to 30 tones.

I'm glad they added a weight readout XD

Well, I assume you know that only applies to the Kerbin surface at sea level, right ? Good enough for launches, though

[Spartwo]

I re-installed Mechjeb for now.

[Wjolcz]

Not having TWR and dV readouts in revertless career save is literally unplayable without KER.

SQUAD seriously needs to reconsider their decisions on this topic.

It would be good if they added the airspeed readout, too.

[mikegarrison]

I am trying to play a career game right now in totally stock mode, and the lack of d-v information is extremely frustrating. Of all the things I use mechjeb for, that's absolutely the most critical.

Re. the ability to know d-v implemented as a skill of the engineer: that's an interesting idea. But you have LOTS of engineers back at KSP. So you should be able to know your d-v in the hanger right from the start. It would be an interesting twist, however, if it took an engineer on board in order to track it after launch.

[Xavven]

Not having TWR and dV readouts in revertless career save is literally unplayable without KER.

SQUAD seriously needs to reconsider their decisions on this topic.

It would be good if they added the airspeed readout, too.

Squad did reconsider. They used to be against showing delta-v but changed their minds. They didn't have enough time to get it into 1.0. I bet it's coming in a future patch.

We can all cool our jets, I think

[malkuth]

Squad did reconsider. They used to be against showing delta-v but changed their minds. They didn't have enough time to get it into 1.0. I bet it's coming in a future patch.

We can all cool our jets, I think

takes about 1 min to add a display to the existing Engineers report. So this is not what they are adding.

They are going to make it for an engineer kerbal in a vessel can give you your remaining Delta V numbers. Most likely with some sort of slider % chance of being off on numbers compared to what level they are. Which in that case would take more than 1 minute. Doesn't sound like we are getting a VAB readout which is what we need.

I can already tell what my vessel has left by checking fuel amounts. So the engineer thing won't be as useful as Vab Reading.

[klgraham1013]

Squad did reconsider. They used to be against showing delta-v but changed their minds. They didn't have enough time to get it into 1.0. I bet it's coming in a future patch.

We can all cool our jets, I think

I'll cool my jets when it's actually in the game. Thank you very much.

[r_rolo1]

Ok, let me clear some misconceptions. SQUAD was never against we having dV readouts ... they were and are against we having them from start without having to earn them in some way. Their position has not changed a bit.

That does not make their position less stupid IMHO ( it is like having a Sim City style game without a money reserve readout ), but atleast they are sticking to it :/

[Xavven]

takes about 1 min to add a display to the existing Engineers report. So this is not what they are adding.

They are going to make it for an engineer kerbal in a vessel can give you your remaining Delta V numbers. Most likely with some sort of slider % chance of being off on numbers compared to what level they are. Which in that case would take more than 1 minute. Doesn't sound like we are getting a VAB readout which is what we need.

I can already tell what my vessel has left by checking fuel amounts. So the engineer thing won't be as useful as Vab Reading.

Oh, I didn't know that Squad was planning on NOT making it a VAB readout. I must have missed the memo where Squad said this.

Seems silly that I'd have to load the vessel on the launchpad with an Engineer to know the delta-v, when it should be visible as I'm building it. Otherwise, what would stop me from loading each stage individually on the launchpad with the engineer to get the information I need? And in that case, it's just promoting completely pointless tedium. Reminds me of having to load a vessel on the launchpad to see its total mass (before the vessel info app was added to the VAB).

I'll cool my jets when it's actually in the game. Thank you very much.

Hah... Well I wasn't telling you what to do anyway, but now that r_rolo1 and malkuth cleared up some misconceptions, I'm actually firing my jets back up.

Ok, let me clear some misconceptions. SQUAD was never against we having dV readouts ... they were and are against we having them from start without having to earn them in some way. Their position has not changed a bit.

That does not make their position less stupid IMHO ( it is like having a Sim City style game without a money reserve readout ), but atleast they are sticking to it :/

Ah, thanks for clearing up that misconception. I agree -- not having delta-v readouts from the beginning creates the exact same problem we have with many other career mode gameplay elements -- it makes the early game harder than the late game.