PSA: Solar panels now useless past Dres (as it should be)

[Kirondoll]

Squad nerfs everything,people sticks RTG on crafts and call it challenge.

How transform a creative game into a wannabe fail simulation.

Maybe you can go back to orbiter if you are so worried about realism.

[KerikBalm]

Tears?

Its not so much a challenge, as another design decision.

Did you use retrorockets when landing at high altitude on duna? or just slap on more parachutes?

Do you use RTGs at Jool, or slap on more solar panels?

Sorry... I don't want a game where I can go everywhere and back except Eve, Moho, and Tylo - with the same single stage craft.

Now there are more complex decisions to make, and to me, that is where the fun is.

FWIW, you can just calculate using the inverse square law, and the semi major axis.

IRL, Earth's orit is 1 AU, and Jupier's is 5.2

1/5.2^2 = 1/27 -> Earth gets on average 27x more sunlight per unit area than jupiter

Kerbin: 13,600,000 KM... I'll call this 1 KU

Duna: 1.524 KU -> 1.524^2 = 2.322 You need 2.322x as many solar panels to generate the same power (or multiply electricity per ton by 1/2.322)

Jool: 5.05 KU -> 25.6x as many solar panels needed

These are highly eccentric highly, calculating different values for Apoapsis and perapsis

Dres: PE: 2.57 KU AP:3.43 KU 6.6x as many solar panels needed at PE, 11.8x as many needed at AP

Eeloo: PE: 4.9 KU AP: 8.35 24x as many panels needed at perapsis 70x as many solar panels needed at Apoapsis!!!

Take your electrciity per ton at Kerbin, divide by 70 (well, 69.72 to be precise)

If you have some gigantors where a single ox-stat would work, then it should work...

Edited May 3, 2015 by KerikBalm

[Erixxxx]

Squad nerfs everything,people sticks RTG on crafts and call it challenge.

How transform a creative game into a wannabe fail simulation.

Maybe you can go back to orbiter if you are so worried about realism.

It's a challenge for Career since the RTG is in the absolute last tier now.

[a2soup]

Squad nerfs everything,people sticks RTG on crafts and call it challenge.

This misses the full situation. For missions inside of Dres's orbit, solar panels are better than RTGs. Also, fuel cells are often better than RTGs outside of Dres's orbit, depending on your ship and mission.

Before 1.0, the best solution was almost always to cover everything in OX-STATs. Now, there are three different ways to generate power, each with significant and distinct optimal use situations. Electricity, which used to not take any consideration, is now something to be carefully planned. I call that an improvement whether you're a realist or game-ist.

[Kirondoll]

Tears?

Its not so much a challenge, as another design decision.

Did you use retrorockets when landing at high altitude on duna? or just slap on more parachutes?

Do you use RTGs at Jool, or slap on more solar panels?

Sorry... I don't want a game where I can go everywhere and back except Eve, Moho, and Tylo - with the same single stage craft.

Now there are more complex decisions to make, and to me, that is where the fun is.

First "Tears" is something that belongs to EvE online forums , maybe you can go back to "spaze ship iz zerius buzinezzz 111!!!!" game.

You questions are funny and shows that you don't play this game , before the 1.0 to land on duna you needed to use retrorockets even if you was packing parachutes , now you need only a couple of parachutes. (and you can also aerobrake without the fear to crash into a mountain).

Your second question is a no choice because if play stock , every mission past duna will use RTG.

- - - Updated - - -

FWIW, you can just calculate using the inverse square law, and the semi major axis.

IRL, Earth's orit is 1 AU, and Jupier's is 5.2

1/5.2^2 = 1/27 -> Earth gets on average 27x more sunlight per unit area than jupiter

Kerbin: 13,600,000 KM... I'll call this 1 KU

Duna: 1.524 KU -> 1.524^2 = 2.322 You need 2.322x as many solar panels to generate the same power (or multiply electricity per ton by 1/2.322)

Jool: 5.05 KU -> 25.6x as many solar panels needed

These are highly eccentric highly, calculating different values for Apoapsis and perapsis

Dres: PE: 2.57 KU AP:3.43 KU 6.6x as many solar panels needed at PE, 11.8x as many needed at AP

Eeloo: PE: 4.9 KU AP: 8.35 24x as many panels needed at perapsis 70x as many solar panels needed at Apoapsis!!!

Take your electrciity per ton at Kerbin, divide by 70 (well, 69.72 to be precise)

If you have some gigantors where a single ox-stat would work, then it should work...

And a truck full of WHO CARES? now we are supposed to do math about a game with green dwarfs that loves rockets and explosions?

[Michaelo90]

Using lots of ox-stats can still be the most mass efficient power source everywhere except when in shadow, you just have to use a little trick Physicsless parts are still massless if mounted on another physicsless part, so you can build a big array of ox-stats on cubic struts and only get the weight of the first cubic strut

[royying]

Should the brightness of outer planet be lower?

the panel generate less power mean they receive less light.

[KerikBalm]

You questions are funny and shows that you don't play this game , before the 1.0 to land on duna you needed to use retrorockets even if you was packing parachutes , now you need only a couple of parachutes. (and you can also aerobrake without the fear to crash into a mountain).

Your second question is a no choice because if play stock , every mission past duna will use RTG.

Lol... maybe you should look at some of my other posts, I clearly play this game, and better than you I'd imagine.

You could land on duna with just parachutes.

Options:

* spam lots and lots of parachute (or do the math and find a single parachute and retrorockets is better)

* Land at a low elevation where the atmospher was between 15-18% of Kerbin's

* Use a very light lander

* Lithobreak... use parts with high impact tolerances, shock absorbing struts (now: make sure there is an engineer to repair them after they collapse on landing)

To complete the explore duna contract in 0.90, I just detached a QBE probe core from my orbiter (which then went to ike and landed, also unmanned) covered with OX-stats, some scence instruments+comm 16, and a single mk-16 parachute... and its pretty hard to get a fuel tank+ engine combo that weighs less than 1 mk16 parachute.

It landed safely. No retrockets involved.

[sarcasm]But yea.... sure, say everything is black and white, ignore complexity... there is a clear right and wrong, and you are right [/sarcasm]

"Your second question is a no choice because if play stock , every mission past duna will use RTG."

Maybe, maybe not.

Suppose I send an ion probe to Jool,

My ejection burn is going to require a lot of power, but its going to be done in Kerbin's SOI, where solar panels are the most mass efficient..

When that burn is done, its smooth sailing until aeorcapture.

Once at the Jool system, the circularization maneuver won't take much power... my power requirements will be much less... keep the probe core active, recharge batteries for the next transmission or maneuver... etc.

I may still go with solar out to Jool.

Meanwhile... Eeloo... No aerobraking there... much higher energy needs upon arrival, I probably won't use power.

Maybe.. maybe not. Maybe I'll have an ion probe that visits Ike, then dres, then the low gravity moons of Jool, then goes to Eeloo.

Lowering my mass at the start of the mission may be worth dealing with long burns at Eeloo.

The Oberth effect isn't so important at Eeloo because of its low mass... and you hang around for a long time near apoapsis before intercepting Eeloo. I could probably get my relative velocity to Eeloo pretty low before entering its SOI, even on that trickle of power

Solar panels will have variable output during the mission. They start high, end low (to outer destinations).. if your power needs start high and end low, they are perfect.

Or you could take a simple approach and slap on RTGs.

I like complexity. It seems you don't.

And a truck full of WHO CARES? now we are supposed to do math about a game with green dwarfs that loves rockets and explosions?

I sure as heck do math when making designs in KSP!

Sure, you can use Tavert's optimal engine charts... but that's mass optimal, what if you want to be fuel optimal so you don't need to refuel your fuel depot so often... what about when balance changes come... etc etc...

Yes, I do math and I play KSP.

Edited May 3, 2015 by KerikBalm

[Kirondoll]

I sure as heck do math when making designs in KSP!

Sure, you can use Tavert's optimal engine charts... but that's mass optimal, what if you want to be fuel optimal so you don't need to refuel your fuel depot so often... what about when balance changes come... etc etc...

Yes, I do math and I play KSP.

You do math but you lack of comprension , what you do is not what everyone must do , you can spend a week doing math to launch a single rocket , i can assure you that is not what most of the players do.

[KerikBalm]

"You do math but you lack of comprension"

I understand just fine.

I put the math out there for people to use or not use as they desire, and you complain about it. A lot of my stuff I don't do any math for beyond a quick TWR check (I really need to re-install KER)

The game has different power sources, some with advantages, some with disadvantages.

The RTG is there, and its simple: This much power, always, this much mass, no resources or distance from the sun to consider.

If you like to keep things simple, use it.

This game lets people do things simple, or more complex.

Don't want to bother with an aerocapture? do a retroburn like you do for planets with no atmospheres.

Don't want to bother with a gravity assist? don't want to check if a bielliptic transfer is more efficient? Do a standard Hohmann.

I understand that first you complain that you are "forced" to use a part with no viable alternative... and then you basically say you want things simple so you don't want to need to think about what to put on.

So as far as my comprehension: Before you didn't think, you just slapped solar panels on. Now you don't want to think, and you'll just slap RTGs on.

You are complaining that the simple option has changed from solar panels to RTGs...

Right... ok.

[Laie]

As discussed in the other electricity stats thread, fuel cells are probably a better choice than RTGs most of the time, but that's a different question.

Thanks for sharing your results!

Unless you're doing ISRU, one or very few RTGs plus sufficient battery capacity should do nicely. Power consumption tends to be bursty, there's a lot of time where you have zero demand during which the RTGs can recharge the batteries. Even with a Ion Drive: four RTGs and one big battery allow for more than ten minutes of full-power operation, and need about 25 minutes to recharge. I used such a vessel to Scansat the Joolian system and never was at risk of running out of juice.

[KAP1985]

good, now we have an excuse for reactors in stock

[panzer1b]

Not a big deal imo, ive already started using ion+batter banks instead, as for things like jool ejection burns, you dont get any sun anyways.

That saim, im happy they changed this to more realistic, now ion+solar isnt necessarily the only way to go.

Also, has anyone actually found if fuel cells make any sense? Ofc you need to drag up LFO, but does the extra LFO/mass of those cells make sense over bringing RTGs and or battery banks thatll just recharge lateron?

[Hotblack Desiato]

Using lots of ox-stats can still be the most mass efficient power source everywhere except when in shadow, you just have to use a little trick Physicsless parts are still massless if mounted on another physicsless part, so you can build a big array of ox-stats on cubic struts and only get the weight of the first cubic strut

just a little OT-question: cubic strut and a heatshield mounted on it... and bam, the heatshield is massless again?

[Renegrade]

Power consumption tends to be bursty, there's a lot of time where you have zero demand during which the RTGs can recharge the batteries. Even with a Ion Drive: four RTGs and one big battery allow for more than ten minutes of full-power operation, and need about 25 minutes to recharge. I used such a vessel to Scansat the Joolian system and never was at risk of running out of juice.

Yep! Batteries are one of the underrrated things in KSP (even historically) as people could always #lolsolar (until they start an ion burn on the dark side of a planet heh) their way past problems. My old 0.90-era science reprocessing/experiment cleaning stations were often powered by a couple of ox-stats and a quad of Z-400s. They could handle the load just fine.

(also thank goodness the #Lolmassless thing has been mostly fixed..)

And a truck full of WHO CARES? now we are supposed to do math about a game with green dwarfs that loves rockets and explosions?

Yeah totally - it's not like it's rocket science or something.

Oh wait..

Edited May 3, 2015 by Renegrade

[Wheffle]

Squad nerfs everything,people sticks RTG on crafts and call it challenge.

How transform a creative game into a wannabe fail simulation.

Maybe you can go back to orbiter if you are so worried about realism.

Woah, calm down dude. Puberty is just phase and your hormones will balance eventually.

If you disagree with a change, that's fine, but you can do it without living up to what everyone expects from internet comment sections.

[MrCynical]

Solar panels also seem to be near useless on the surface of Eve as well - the mid size panels are only generating about 0.03 energy flow even with full exposure. Is Eve's atmosphere just too murky for them now or is it a heat thing? Probably going to need fuel cells on the next lander as its taking all day to generate enough power for a single transmission.

[Doctor Axel]

Solar panels also seem to be near useless on the surface of Eve as well - the mid size panels are only generating about 0.03 energy flow even with full exposure. Is Eve's atmosphere just too murky for them now or is it a heat thing? Probably going to need fuel cells on the next lander as its taking all day to generate enough power for a single transmission.

I believe temperature now affects solar panels in a pretty big way. Not sure if atmospheres effect them now, though - would be interesting to know.

These fuel cell thingies are turning out to be pretty handy, I think. =D

[MrCynical]

I don't think it's temperature - it only looks marginally hotter in the temperature display compared to an orbiter around eve, and the same panels on that ship are generating close to 100 times as much power.

[Kerbart]

A lot of people like making space stations with an array of a dozen gigantors. Now that's actually useful (as long as it's in orbit of the outer planets)

[InfinityArch]

A lot of people like making space stations with an array of a dozen gigantors. Now that's actually useful (as long as it's in orbit of the outer planets)

Well, useful if you actually have any need to do research by the point in the game that you're reaching the outer planets.

[phunk]

You do math but you lack of comprension , what you do is not what everyone must do , you can spend a week doing math to launch a single rocket , i can assure you that is not what most of the players do.

You're right about that, it doesn't take most of us a week.

[Caelib]

I wouldn't go so far as to say useless You just need a lot more ... and it is always good to have a few small panels just for some backup.

[a2soup]

I wouldn't go so far as to say useless

You're right, I did this research in the course of planning an extensive ion-powered mission, so I was overly focused on getting lots of power efficiently. The title should be something more like "Past Dres, solar panels are less efficient than RTGs"

If you have some battery buffer and all you need is a little bit of power for a probe core and/or occasional reaction wheels, then two OX-4 panels are probably better than an RTG, even at Jool. They do not under any circumstances produce electricity more efficiently there, but they have a lower total weight, which is what matters if you only need a little electricity.

[purpleivan]

I wish I'd know about this earlier.

I've been putt-putting around near Kerbin (challenges and cinematics) since 1.0 was released and I tried using solar panels around Jool for the first time today, only to find that the three gigantors on my solar ship were nowhere near sufficient to supply 4 ions with power.

Ah well, back to the drawing board.