Explore contracts should be automatic and hidden

[MartGonzo]

I really like the new speed and altitude records being automatic and hidden, I'd love to see the explore contracts added to that list.

In my current career the Explore Minmas never showed up, there are other career contracts for Minmas, like satellites and surveys but I don't want to go there because I'm still hoping the explore contract will show up at some point.

I've never been there in my current career, but I was wondering if maybe a piece of debris from my moon lander has entered Minmas' SOI and nullified that contract before I got a chance to take it?

anyway, waiting for those contracts to turn up holds back the gameplay so I think it would make sense for them to be automatic.

thoughts anyone?

[ghpstage]

Very much agree. The reason the altitude contracts were replaced with records was to reduce grinding and avoid screwing over the players, and yet the exploration contracts, which were already capable of screwing you over and were overly restrictive in order have now been made far, far worse, with the worlds first contracts appearing very unpredictably.

[MartGonzo]

Thanks ghpstage.

yep they do seem almost random whether they appear or not, so far the only ones I've had appear are Mun and Duna.

[Aragosnat]

Yes. Would be nice if certain Explore contracts appeared together or where lumped together. Like Mun and Minmus, Duna and Ike Explore contracts. Since the Delta-V requirement for intercept is Much less then Duna's. Minmus should have already popped up. Also explore contracts are not 100% random. Most of them are based on how high your rep is when you are completeing one of the before Explore Contracts.. Or I should say they used to be.

Used to go like this, Reach orbit -> Mun, Mun fly-by or science transmit-> Minmus (600+ rep), orbiting and Landing on Mun aquired Duna (low rep needed) and Ike (600+ rep). Minmus landing -> Eva Explore Contract. Finishing Duna and Ike Contrats -> Gilly Contract. Finishing Eve & Gilly -> Jool and its moons. After Jool and its moons -> Dres and After Dres Eeloo.

One of the problems with the explore contacts is they all give advances when taking them and the record keeping ones don't do that. The other is. In case of the ones outside of Kerbin's SOI. There is a slim to good chance of accidently getting an intrecept within an intercept without trying (when trying it is usually even easier).

I do find it weird that certain contracts don't pop up together. Like Mün and Minmus should both pop up after getting an orbit of Kerbin. Since both are easily visable from Kerbin (Minmus still is a dot, still easily notice able from KSC). I understand allitle bit on why. It is more or less so they don't fill up on those contracts and end up with no way to generate additional funds. Since they can never expire or be terminated after accepting and the Contract building is limited till you max it out. Which again requires a lot of Funds to do. It is also why I dislike it when I noticed it was rep based and still is. The Explore Contracts should be available regardless of rep. As I could be selling the rep in KSP 1.0.2. But, still be good enough to be getting to places like Eve and Duna with just the lv-909 and the static solar panels. Don't mind the completely randomly generated ones being rep based.

Edit: By lumped together I mean. One contract that would contain the planet and its moons. In case of Kerbin. Just Mün and Minmus being one contract.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Aragosnat

[r4pt0r]

yeah. I just had to land on minmus to get enough rep to get the "plant a flag on minmus" contract.

[MartGonzo]

Yes. Would be nice if certain Explore contracts appeared together or where lumped together. Like Mun and Minmus, Duna and Ike Explore contracts. Since the Delta-V requirement for intercept is Much less then Duna's. Minmus should have already popped up. Also explore contracts are not 100% random. Most of them are based on how high your rep is when you are completeing one of the before Explore Contracts.. Or I should say they used to be.

Used to go like this, Reach orbit -> Mun, Mun fly-by or science transmit-> Minmus (600+ rep), orbiting and Landing on Mun aquired Duna (low rep needed) and Ike (600+ rep). Minmus landing -> Eva Explore Contract. Finishing Duna and Ike Contrats -> Gilly Contract. Finishing Eve & Gilly -> Jool and its moons. After Jool and its moons -> Dres and After Dres Eeloo.

One of the problems with the explore contacts is they all give advances when taking them and the record keeping ones don't do that. The other is. In case of the ones outside of Kerbin's SOI. There is a slim to good chance of accidently getting an intrecept within an intercept without trying (when trying it is usually even easier).

I do find it weird that certain contracts don't pop up together. Like Mün and Minmus should both pop up after getting an orbit of Kerbin. Since both are easily visable from Kerbin (Minmus still is a dot, still easily notice able from KSC). I understand allitle bit on why. It is more or less so they don't fill up on those contracts and end up with no way to generate additional funds. Since they can never expire or be terminated after accepting and the Contract building is limited till you max it out. Which again requires a lot of Funds to do. It is also why I dislike it when I noticed it was rep based and still is. The Explore Contracts should be available regardless of rep. As I could be selling the rep in KSP 1.0.2. But, still be good enough to be getting to places like Eve and Duna with just the lv-909 and the static solar panels. Don't mind the completely randomly generated ones being rep based.

Edit: By lumped together I mean. One contract that would contain the planet and its moons. In case of Kerbin. Just Mün and Minmus being one contract.

I didn't know they were based on rep, that's interesting

I can see that may lead to issues with the contracts not appearing if the player has traded in their rep in the early game for science or funds, not sure it's really a well thought out idea.

While the point you make about getting funds upfront when taking those contracts is a good point, the point you made about accidentally entering a sphere of influence kind of demonstrates one of the problems with the current implementation, as it stands now we would get nothing for that and would lose the chance of that contract ever arising.

I still think they would make more sense to be there from the start as hidden records.

[gmiddlemass]

+1 on this suggestion.

I normally go to Minmus before Mun as I consider it the easiest option especially early on. I'm just waiting for the contract to show up now.

[Aragosnat]

I didn't know they were based on rep, that's interesting

I can see that may lead to issues with the contracts not appearing if the player has traded in their rep in the early game for science or funds, not sure it's really a well thought out idea.

While the point you make about getting funds upfront when taking those contracts is a good point, the point you made about accidentally entering a sphere of influence kind of demonstrates one of the problems with the current implementation, as it stands now we would get nothing for that and would lose the chance of that contract ever arising.

I still think they would make more sense to be there from the start as hidden records.

Agree with you on it would be nice if there where all there from the start. Just they would have to basicly get rid of the advanced and completion funding from accepting and finish funds the contract provides by merging it with the the tasks in that contract and braking the contact up into the 4 pieces. That least from my point of view. Would make it fair.

Another way. Would be make it the contracts pop up on on the delta-v needed to get there after getting the Explore Mün Corntact to pop up. What I mean is. If you make a craft that gets a Mün intrecept and you make the craft get the intercept and be within the SOI. This way would still give some baby steps for new players to make. While not flooding their contracts up with explorations. One problem is if one went their first do to say wantign more science first. Then they would miss out on the contract. At least how it currently works. One sulotion to this would be if you can get within the SOI the cotract pops up right then and there. The other would be similar as the first. But, all you would then need to do is get a burn that has the moon/planet with an intercept.

A third possibility. Would be once orbit has been achieved. Mün and Minmus contracts appear. Doing Mün gets Duna and Ike to pop up. Minmus gets Eve and Gilly. Duna get you Jool, Jool's moons, Dres, and Eeloo. Eve gets Us Moho. Or once outside of Kerbin's SOI. Jool system, Dres, Eeloo and Moho contracts pop up.

I'm all for teaching new players how to get into space and do orbital manuevers. But, one thing is for sure. Needing to be at a certain rep level to get those Explore Contracts has got to go.

[ghpstage]

yeah. I just had to land on minmus to get enough rep to get the "plant a flag on minmus" contract.

Flag planting contracts are, rather bizarrely, a random repeatable contract and not a one off like 'explore X' or the new worlds firsts. It isn't surprising or particularly nonsensical from the perspective of the games career to see it happen in that order.

A third possibility. Would be once orbit has been achieved. Mün and Minmus contracts appear. Doing Mün gets Duna and Ike to pop up. Minmus gets Eve and Gilly. Duna get you Jool, Jool's moons, Dres, and Eeloo. Eve gets Us Moho. Or once outside of Kerbin's SOI. Jool system, Dres, Eeloo and Moho contracts pop up.

Whether it involved the reputation system or not, this was functionally how these contracts worked in 0.9. You could literally go through all of the one off 'scripted' contracts one after the other without ever touching a random one. They would reliably pop up in succession, which was a whole lot better than the current insanity.

I'm all for teaching new players how to get into space and do orbital manuevers. But, one thing is for sure. Needing to be at a certain rep level to get those Explore Contracts has got to go.

Agreed. Reputation unlocking milestone contracts is far too arbitrary, is counter-intuitive, and artificially holds people back from trying to explore further afield on shoestring budgets and at low tech levels. Edited May 8, 2015 by ghpstage

[MartGonzo]

Agree with you on it would be nice if there where all there from the start. Just they would have to basicly get rid of the advanced and completion funding from accepting and finish funds the contract provides by merging it with the the tasks in that contract and braking the contact up into the 4 pieces. That least from my point of view. Would make it fair.

Another way. Would be make it the contracts pop up on on the delta-v needed to get there after getting the Explore Mün Corntact to pop up. What I mean is. If you make a craft that gets a Mün intrecept and you make the craft get the intercept and be within the SOI. This way would still give some baby steps for new players to make. While not flooding their contracts up with explorations. One problem is if one went their first do to say wantign more science first. Then they would miss out on the contract. At least how it currently works. One sulotion to this would be if you can get within the SOI the cotract pops up right then and there. The other would be similar as the first. But, all you would then need to do is get a burn that has the moon/planet with an intercept.

A third possibility. Would be once orbit has been achieved. Mün and Minmus contracts appear. Doing Mün gets Duna and Ike to pop up. Minmus gets Eve and Gilly. Duna get you Jool, Jool's moons, Dres, and Eeloo. Eve gets Us Moho. Or once outside of Kerbin's SOI. Jool system, Dres, Eeloo and Moho contracts pop up.

I'm all for teaching new players how to get into space and do orbital manuevers. But, one thing is for sure. Needing to be at a certain rep level to get those Explore Contracts has got to go.

Sorry for the late reply Aragosnat, first chance I've had to get some time on the forum.

Thanks for those well thought out ideas, I like them all and can't really add anything as they all solve the problems with the current implementation of explore contracts.

[Sky_walker]

I agree.

It's a small thing, but would have a positive impact on allowing us to choose our own path through the Career.

ps. it's Minimus, not Minimas

[tater]

Given the current system, I disagree. I actually think there should be far more Explore contracts, only they should be called missions. The current science paradigm is so bad (collecting points from "biomes" is every bit as arbitrary and gamey as getting points from missions) that I think suites of interrelated missions/goals should actually provide most "science." If the system changed to real exploration, I'd want something different.

For example, Explore the Mun could be split into a few missions, some manned, some unmanned. They'd be more specific in some ways, and completing one section opens up related missions. Polar orbit for the Mun unlocks scanning missions (temp scan above altitude, etc). The Land a Kerbal on the Mun would be unlocked after some previous mission that gets data from potential landing sites, etc.

if science was designed better, this would not be required. Auto accomplishments basically default career to science mode, IMO.

[MartGonzo]

Given the current system, I disagree. I actually think there should be far more Explore contracts, only they should be called missions. The current science paradigm is so bad (collecting points from "biomes" is every bit as arbitrary and gamey as getting points from missions) that I think suites of interrelated missions/goals should actually provide most "science." If the system changed to real exploration, I'd want something different.

For example, Explore the Mun could be split into a few missions, some manned, some unmanned. They'd be more specific in some ways, and completing one section opens up related missions. Polar orbit for the Mun unlocks scanning missions (temp scan above altitude, etc). The Land a Kerbal on the Mun would be unlocked after some previous mission that gets data from potential landing sites, etc.

if science was designed better, this would not be required. Auto accomplishments basically default career to science mode, IMO.

That's not a bad idea but I'd still prefer the goals within the explore contracts to be automatic because waiting for these contracts to show (and hoping they do, as it seems they often don't) dictates how the player must proceed and that seems antithetical to the KSP ethos.

I don't agree that it turns the career into science mode as we're only talking about explore contracts, not the dozens of other types of contract now in the game.

[tater]

Most all of the other contracts need to be expunged, anyway.

The rescues are fun if RARE, but about 1/4 or more of the contracts I am offered are rescues. Another 1/4 are tourists.

Hiding the contracts makes no sense, as they should require specific goals.

A better solution is to split the contract office (calling ti "Mission Control" was a bad choice by Squad, since mission control controls missions already in flight) into the "Contract Office," and "Mission Planning." The latter would be all the stuff your own program would do. It would have (visible) all the "Explore" type missions, then taking those would open up sub-missions within. Those would work like contracts, but would be mission ideas your staff comes up with. Rewards would be given up front as a budget… Perhaps there is a set budget value based upon Rep, and the missions dole it out as some fraction of your total available budget remaining.

[MartGonzo]

Most all of the other contracts need to be expunged, anyway.

The rescues are fun if RARE, but about 1/4 or more of the contracts I am offered are rescues. Another 1/4 are tourists.

Hiding the contracts makes no sense, as they should require specific goals.

A better solution is to split the contract office (calling ti "Mission Control" was a bad choice by Squad, since mission control controls missions already in flight) into the "Contract Office," and "Mission Planning." The latter would be all the stuff your own program would do. It would have (visible) all the "Explore" type missions, then taking those would open up sub-missions within. Those would work like contracts, but would be mission ideas your staff comes up with. Rewards would be given up front as a budget… Perhaps there is a set budget value based upon Rep, and the missions dole it out as some fraction of your total available budget remaining.

I disagree, the other contracts were good additions, when contracts were first introduced there was only a few types and pretty much everyone agreed there needed to be more variation, taking most of them back out now would be unpopular and a step backwards.

Rescues are no longer rare either, in my 1.0.2 career there's nearly always at least 2 or 3 available at any time, if anything they seem to too prolific.

Presumably in our careers we all want to visit all the bodies anyway so the Explore contract is unnecessary and as myself and others have said, it dictates where you have to go next, which limits the player.