Was math invented or discovered?

[Camacha]

Why don't people realize that before they adequately define (not the smart-alec "dictionary/wiki/google" nonsense) what "invented" and "discovered" actually mean, your argument has no merit? To do this, you have to abandon the original argument; else you'll end up simply changing what needs to be defined. Saying that math is "x" and that as "x" it cannot be invented/discovered only means you now need to fully and utterly define what "x" is.

I feel you are looking to terribly complicate things that are not that complicated at all.

This topic is a very deep and philosophical topic

No, it's not. No need for all the mumbo jumbo. All we need is some inspirational image to make this 'deep' message complete.

[Fel]

I feel you are looking to terribly complicate things that are not that complicated at all.

And this is why I don't like bothering with the philosophical debates here...

This IS terribly complicated, it isn't something you can just Google and get an answer to and it is something that is debated by people who are far smarter than either of us. To dismiss it lightly is to show ignorance yourself.

No, it's not. No need for all the mumbo jumbo. All we need is some inspirational image to make this 'deep' message complete.

"Inspirational Messages" are "faux-philosophy for the rabble;" meaningless regurgitated colloquialisms with no real meaning behind them. How is the implication that nothing we do is actually of our own design inspirational?

Try to THINK, instead of just copy-paste wikipedia; this argument is much more complex than you realize.

[Darnok]

Some math functions the "features" of our universe were discovered while ago, shame science didn't follow them and we are using virtual units :/

[Technical Ben]

I've watched spiders count. So I can say for certain it is not a "human" invention so to speak. It may require some form of intelligence (a spider has a brain), but for certain, it was not us who were the "first".

[BlueCosmology]

Some math functions the "features" of our universe were discovered while ago, shame science didn't follow them and we are using virtual units :/

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/mathematical-encoding-pyramids-1.jpg?itok=FL59gApS

What do you mean virtual units?

[Darnok]

What do you mean virtual units?

Invented by humans and understand only by humans. If we ever contact aliens they won't understand units like second or meter.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Darnok

[Camacha]

And this is why I don't like bothering with the philosophical debates here...

Because people think for themselves and do not always agree with your views? Do not dismiss my (and other's) willingness or capacity to participate in a proper philosophical debate so easily, there might be other factors that you simply overlooked or do not wish to see.

This IS terribly complicated, it isn't something you can just Google and get an answer to and it is something that is debated by people who are far smarter than either of us. To dismiss it lightly is to show ignorance yourself.

You mistake me disagreeing with your view for not having considered your argument. I do not dismiss anything lightly, I just found it to be of a totally different level than you purport.

Try to THINK, instead of just copy-paste wikipedia; this argument is much more complex than you realize.

Stop trying to push this, because it is not. I have read your post and I see fanciful magician's movements to create tension where there is none. You are right, there is some discussion there, but it can hardly be called very deep. Having some fun with the exercise of thinking and debating might be a reason to pursue the subject, but then we should just take it for what it is, rather than continuously emphasizing that this is supposed to be a deep and profound subject.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Camacha

[Jonboy]

Invented by humans and understand only by humans. If we ever contact aliens they won't understand units like second or meter.

Why not? We can convert between all kinds of different units. It's the most basic mathematical manipulation in high school physics. You're saying that aliens couldn't convert between their units and ours?

[Camacha]

Why not? We can convert between all kinds of different units. It's the most basic mathematical manipulation in high school physics. You're saying that aliens couldn't convert between their units and ours?

I assume he meant that the units do not intrinsicly mean anything to aliens, you need to explain them. This is not entirely accurate though, as we have worked to make SI units more universal by basing them on units derived from purely physical phenomena. How many periods of which atom counts as a second is indeed arbitrary, but that is something that is pretty much impossible to avoid. Unless we find out that things like the Planck lenght actually exist it will always be a matter of convention.

Though I would also imagine that certain values are indeed universal, like À (pi). I am not sure how far you would come with that though.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Camacha

[BlueCosmology]

Invented by humans and understand only by humans. If we ever contact aliens they won't understand units like second or meter.

Both the second and meter are now defined in terms of fundamental physical constants, aliens most certainly would understand it.

You then go on to say that we should replace these with arbitrary angles, in degrees rather than radians lol?

[Jonboy]

Both the second and meter are now defined in terms of fundamental physical constants, aliens most certainly would understand it.

You then go on to say that we should replace these with arbitrary angles, in degrees rather than radians lol?

Well, it was built into the pyramids. Good enough for me, I guess. /s

[Darnok]

I assume he meant that the units do not intrinsicly mean anything to aliens, you need to explain them. This is not entirely accurate though, as we have worked to make SI units more universal by basing them on units derived from purely physical phenomena. How many periods of whichs atom counts as a second is indeed arbitrary, but that is something that is pretty much impossible to avoid. Unless we find out that things like the Planck lenght actually exist it will always be a matter of convention.

Though I would also imagine that certain values are indeed universal, like À (pi). I am not sure how far you would come with that though.

Exactly, À and other mathematical values are constant. We can build universal units based on those values and on ratios, because ratios are understood by any civilization and in any language, of course you have to use geometry to write them in universal language Triangles, circles, pyramides and spheres would work.

While our units build on "physical phenomena" are not universal, ask anyone on middle of street about what element and how many periods it needs to point 1 second?

Why it is this element and not the other? Speed of light is not constant, so meters are useless for any other calculation that road from home to work.

Both the second and meter are now defined in terms of fundamental physical constants, aliens most certainly would understand it.

You then go on to say that we should replace these with arbitrary angles, in degrees rather than radians lol?

No I want to replace arbitrary units with universal values like À and functions on which our universe is built.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Darnok

[BlueCosmology]

Exactly, À and other mathematical values are constant. We can build universal units based on those values and on ratios, because ratios are understood by any civilization and in any language, of course you have to use geometry to write them in universal language Triangles, circles, pyramides and spheres would work.

While our units build on "physical phenomena" are not universal, ask anyone on middle of street about what element and how many periods it needs to point 1 second?

Why it is this element and not the other? Speed of light is not constant, so meters are useless for any other calculation that road from home to work.

No I want to replace arbitrary units with universal values like À and functions on which our universe is built.

That's not at all what you've done, and we already have angles based upon À, it's called radians.

[Camacha]

Exactly, À and other mathematical values are constant. We can build universal units based on those values and on ratios, because ratios are understood by any civilization and in any language, of course you have to use geometry to write them in universal language

The problem is that ratios are easy, but any universal base unit is not. You will simply need to have a convention, because a ratio can be anything - it is just always the same in relation to something else.

I do not see a problem with needing a convention. With the current set-up it is very easy to explain your convention and it should be true in their part of the universe too.

[Greenfire32]

It's a bit of both really. The concept of numbers and functions is purely a human invention, but nature works in a very mathematical way. For example, crystals always grow in geometric patterns with set numbers of sides. Certain formulas are true in nature as well. Things like the triangle formulas (right angles stuff, I'm bad at math so...I'm doing a really bad job of giving examples lol).

Basically math is a law of nature that we learned to measure. And the act of measuring it is what we call "math."

God I'm so bad at math XD

[Darnok]

Well, it was built into the pyramids. Good enough for me, I guess. /s

In triangles and circles when you are using 2D, are those not geometrical figures for you?

That's not at all what you've done, and we already have angles based upon À, it's called radians.

And I said you can't use À to measure angle? Read this http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa-opinion-guest-authors/mathematical-encoding-great-pyramid-002323 there is lots of interesting "features" of triangle and circle with À as radius.

Pyramid was build using triangles and that is what make this article ridiculous?

Or thing that ancient Egyptians could knew À and other math functions before Greeks and Romans?

[BlueCosmology]

In triangles and circles when you are using 2D, are those not geometrical figures for you?

And I said you can't use À to measure angle? Read this http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa-opinion-guest-authors/mathematical-encoding-great-pyramid-002323 there is lots of interesting "features" of triangle and circle with À as radius.

Pyramid was build using triangles and that is what make this article ridiculous?

Or thing that ancient Egyptians could knew À and other math functions before Greeks and Romans?

You're just not saying anything at all that has any meaning.

[Darnok]

You're just not saying anything at all that has any meaning.

For you maybe that is true. That is only opinion not a universal fact

[BlueCosmology]

For you maybe that is true. That is only opinion not a universal fact

It really is just a fact.

[Darnok]

The problem is that ratios are easy, but any universal base unit is not. You will simply need to have a convention, because a ratio can be anything - it is just always the same in relation to something else.

I do not see a problem with needing a convention. With the current set-up it is very easy to explain your convention and it should be true in their part of the universe too.

That is why we should think in layers or contexts. For example use this

if you use Earth and Moon radius it will work. But you can think about something else, different context like

in this example universal functions would work as well.

Some ratios are universal when you think in same context, but picking caesium 133 and measuring duration of 9192631770 periods has no universal context, it is only our choice nothing more.

Finding that kind of values around universe is pointless for any alien civilization, we are acting like we wouldn't know À at all

From alien mathematician point of view we may look like Neanderthals with very basic understanding of math, universe, geometry and with almost no ability for communication.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Darnok

[BlueCosmology]

That is why we should think in layers or contexts. For example use this

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/pyramids-earth.jpg?itok=fCB8W1HP

if you use Earth and Moon radius it will work. But you can think about something else, different context like

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/mathematical-encoding-pyramids-5.jpg?itok=nly6otgd

in this example universal functions would work as well.

Some ratios are universal when you think in same context, but picking caesium 133 and measuring duration of 9192631770 periods has no universal context, it is only our choice nothing more.

Finding that kind of values around universe is pointless for any alien civilization, we are acting like we wouldn't know À at all

From alien mathematician point of view we may look like Neanderthals with very basic understanding of math, universe, geometry and with almost no ability for communication.

How in the world do you think that the angle made by putting our moon in contact with the surface of the Earth and drawing a triangle through the diameter of the earth with one vertex at the centre of the moon is a fundamental universal unit system?

Also while it's clearly irrelevant because the system you're saying even if it was true is ridiculous, it's not even true. The angle in degrees made by that is 51 degrees and 47 minutes of arc, not 51 degrees and 51 minutes of arc, putting a spanner in your nonsense that is clearly just "Wow look it's the same number!"

Edited May 18, 2015 by BlueCosmology

[LN400]

One problem with seconds and meters vs aliens is that the definition of a second is the time it takes to complete an arbitrary number of cycles in an arbitrarily chosen isotope. The meter follows immediately as its definition is related to the speed of light in vacuum and the second, which is arbitrary. The speed of light might be an issue too. There are indications (perhaps strong evidence, I don't know) the speed of light in vacuum is not as constant as we thought. With a variable c and a second that is defined on arbitrary pickings, not even the meter or seconds are universal.

Maths is the language of physics, but don't forget that approximations and limited fields of validity enter most equations. Speed = distance/time is not true for all speeds, only relatively slow speeds as we recognize slow. Who can tell what equations any alien would think are "universally known".

[ZetaX]

Maths is the language of physics, ...

and much much more physics doesn't care about.

but don't forget that approximations and limited fields of validity enter most equations. Speed = distance/time is not true for all speeds, only relatively slow speeds as we recognize slow. Who can tell what equations any alien would think are "universally known".

You are restricting to physical equations here. Purely mathematical ones, or those that are by definition (e.g. W·s = J), won't be influenced by this at all. Best known example: 1+1=2 regardless of where you are because that is by definition. We don't need to think too much about things that are "universally known" because mathematical truth (at least very probably) does not depend on the viewer; the thing that depends is what we find easy, trivial, known or such things.

Now coming back to your actual point: if we define a meter as 123456789 times the time it takes for an atom of Unobtainium-1337 to oscillate in a certain way, then this is universal (in the sense that we are essentially making no assumptions on how aliens think), because the number 123456789 is and the element is (as a part of a reality we share). Now define the meter as the length travelled by light in vacuum in one 987654321th of a second. As second is universal, so is a meter. Most of physics does not really care that much about the exact values, but only about the relations between them. Thus even if c is different we would not have difficulties to communicate; for example, E=mc² would still be true, regardless of what c actually is.

[Camacha]

if you use Earth and Moon radius it will work.

How on Earth are aliens going to understand values that are directly derived from our own, very arbitrarily sized planet and its unusual moon? We would better just use the arbitrary metric values we already have.

[Darnok]

How in the world do you think that the angle made by putting our moon in contact with the surface of the Earth and drawing a triangle through the diameter of the earth with one vertex at the centre of the moon is a fundamental universal unit system?

Also while it's clearly irrelevant because the system you're saying even if it was true is ridiculous, it's not even true. The angle in degrees made by that is 51 degrees and 47 seconds of arc, not 51 degrees and 51 seconds of arc, putting a spanner in your nonsense that is clearly just "Wow look it's the same number!"

I am not talking about numbers, you are.

I am talking about math functions like those at bottom of image

on image you got 4, that is mistake it can be replaced by math function sqrt(phi)*À

À, e, phi, À*phi etc etc are functions, universal from math perspective.

I am trying to think as far away from numbers as I can, IMO advanced civilizations probably are using universal math functions to describe universe instead of some picked numbers understood only by them.

How on Earth are aliens going to understand values that are directly derived from our own, very arbitrarily sized planet and its unusual moon? We would better just use the arbitrary metric values we already have.

If they are using geometry and universal math functions there is possible they have base symbol set for different words/measurements, like Egyptians had.

And this triangle and circles could mean habitable planet

Using À as radius of planet and other functions you are free from arbitrary values like radius ~6300km, so you can use those proportions to measure planet of any size.

More interesting questions would be:

How ancient Egyptians 2500BC knew Earth is not flat?

How they knew À, phi, e? (look when those function were discovered by our civilization)

How it is possible that Earth and Moon created by crashing rocks in orbit around the Sun fit almost perfectly in universal math functions?

Edited May 18, 2015 by Darnok