Was math invented or discovered?

[Jonboy]

I am not talking about numbers, you are.

I am talking about math functions like those at bottom of image

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/mathematical-encoding-pyramids-1.jpg?itok=FL59gApS

on image you got 4, that is mistake it can be replaced by math function sqrt(phi)*À

À, e, phi, À*phi etc etc are functions, universal from math perspective.

I am trying to think as far away from numbers as I can, IMO advanced civilizations probably are using universal math functions to describe universe instead of some picked numbers understood only by them.

No, they're not. They're constants, which are numbers. A function is a mathematical expression involving one or more variables. Your statement that you want to "stay away from numbers" makes no sense, because there is no mathematics without them.

Either way, what means do you have of knowing which constants the aliens will use to develop their unit systems? You can't know for sure, so you're just picking the ones you think they are most likely to use - in other words you're just guessing.

Why bother? Once aliens are advanced enough to communicate with us, it can be assumed that they will be intelligent enough to decode our unit system.

[LN400]

First, I was not saying maths was only the language of physics. Far from it but I worded myself the way I did because it's a saying I assumed was well known.

The meter and second are universal only in the sense that if you happen to pick that particular isotope of Unobtainium and choose to count 123456789 times then you will get the same time interval each time regardless of where you are. Same line of arguements about the meter. I guess what I was saying was that you can have "universal" units that would be totally unknown to even the most intelligent superintelligent alien, simply because they never thought that particular choice was particularely interesting. They might have stumbled across something so fundamental that would make our meter look as inaccurate as measuring distance in stone throws. If we say that seconds and meters are universal then we must say that universal does not imply mutually understood. I just wanted to point that out, is all.

[Darnok]

No, they're not. They're constants, which are numbers. A function is a mathematical expression involving one or more variables. Your statement that you want to "stay away from numbers" makes no sense, because there is no mathematics without them.

Yes they are constants, that is why any math-boy on same level of knowledge should be able to build that triangle?

And if you use À as variable and put different numbers from world around you for example planet radius, you have exact same context for everyone in entire universe!

For your "local" calculations you may use your numbers, but what matters is universal equation phi*À with geometry figure, it makes sense everywhere you go in every language you write it. All you need is math and knowledge about À.

Either way, what means do you have of knowing which constants the aliens will use to develop their unit systems? You can't know for sure, so you're just picking the ones you think they are most likely to use - in other words you're just guessing.

Of course we don't know what that constant means to aliens just by looking at À, but using geometry and math we get universal language.

For communication we need only one more thing... context and that is possible by just stupid pointing finger on Earth and Moon

Or by IQ test... those where you have 3 images in few rows and you have to think about what is going on just by looking at their movement in different columns.

Now imagine more complicated IQ test where we have geometry figure. For example triangle with math constant values and different equations between them.

From first look at À, phi*À you see dependence, you understand it is math, two values, if you have math knowledge on level high enough you understand what those values means in your language, so for aliens with same knowledge they should have exact same meaning.

Now in last row we get something real like figure made with stars, planet with moon or anything else to show us context and scale.

We can calculate arbitrary numbers from this context if we want to

Why bother? Once aliens are advanced enough to communicate with us, it can be assumed that they will be intelligent enough to decode our unit system.

Why bother omg... you don't understand, go to zoo and look at those animals, why are they in cages?

Would they be still locked in if they would be able to communicate with YOU?

More advanced civilization will look at us just like we are looking at cavemans or animals in zoo if we won't understand universal values of universe.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Darnok

[Jonboy]

Yes they are constants, that is why any math-boy on same level of knowledge should be able to build that triangle?

And if you use À as variable and put different numbers from world around you for example planet radius, you have exact same context for everyone in entire universe!

For your "local" calculations you may use your numbers, but what matters is universal equation phi*À with geometry figure, it makes sense everywhere you go in every language you write it. All you need is math and knowledge about À.

Of course we don't know what that constant means to aliens just by looking at À, but using geometry and math we get universal language.

For communication we need only one more thing... context and that is possible by just stupid pointing finger on Earth and Moon

Or by IQ test... those where you have 3 images in few rows and you have to think about what is going on just by looking at their movement in different columns.

Now imagine more complicated IQ test where we have geometry figure. For example triangle with math constant values and different equations between them.

From first look at À, phi*À you see dependence, you understand it is math, two values, if you have math knowledge on level high enough you understand what those values means in your language, so for aliens with same knowledge they should have exact same meaning.

Now in last row we get something real like figure made with stars, planet with moon or anything else to show us context and scale.

We can calculate arbitrary numbers from this context if we want to

Why bother omg... you don't understand, go to zoo and look at those animals, why are they in cages?

Would they be still locked in if they would be able to communicate with YOU?

More advanced civilization will look at us just like we are looking at cavemans or animals in zoo if we won't understand universal values of universe.

This thread is supposed to be about whether math was invented or discovered. You've changed it to one about what unit system we should use to communicate with aliens.

May I politely suggest that you start your own thread if you want to talk about this? That way if people want to continue the original discussion in this thread, they can.

[Camacha]

If they are using geometry and universal math functions there is possible they have base symbol set for different words/measurements, like Egyptians had.

And this triangle and circles could mean habitable planet

Using À as radius of planet and other functions you are free from arbitrary values like radius ~6300km, so you can use those proportions to measure planet of any size.

We already can measure planets any size in an assortment of non SI and SI-units. No need to fiddle around with Egyptian schemes.

[Hunting.Targ]

Invented by humans and understand only by humans. If we ever contact aliens they won't understand units like second or meter.

Both the second and meter are now defined in terms of fundamental physical constants, aliens most certainly would understand it.

You then go on to say that we should replace these with arbitrary angles, in degrees rather than radians lol?

I think that Darnok is saying that the metrics (i.e. standardized units) by which we measure various quantities would probably not be immediately intelligible to an alien culture, since the basis for establishing such units is not a universal absolute; they can be calibrated against natural phenomena such as half-lives, pulsars, and controlled standards (such as the yardstick and atomic chronometer in Grennwich, UK), but while it may be recognized what a second measures, the quantity and system of measure will take some learning. Our own system of minutes and seconds is derived from the navigational system of latitude and longitude - the rotational period of the earth is a natural phenomenon, but the divisions themselves are arbitrary - it could just as well have been 1000° or 1024. This was illustrated in Battlestar Galactica and Farscape, who threw around Yarans and Centons, or Arns and Microts, instead of Years and Seconds.

I hope that's illustrative.

- - - Updated - - -

Incidentally, the reason that Gabriel Farenheit gave for his system that had 180° between the freezing and boiling temperatures of water, was that he hated fractions and wanted a system that got him out of doing math with them.

[heng]

you probably might want to watch Vsauce's video on numbers and counting, if you are into that kind of questions: