Career : Duna return mission

[Cardano]

Question as I am planning my first ( in this career game ) Duna/Ike mission : for the return trip should I plan on bringing all my science back in a MPL?

Seems like I should be able to fill it with all the experiments and use it to house 2 scientists on the return flight. transmitting science when it fills on the way back, and then send up a second MPL from Kerbal absolutely filled with parachutes, transfer all the science to the new MPL and renter with that one to 'return' all the science.

in .23 through beta I never needed science after I exhausted Kerbin, but I still have some nodes to unlock and it seems like this return MPL option makes the most sense.

and while I am at it - I will need an ISRU setup for both Duna and Ike right? Duna to get me around the planet and Ike for my return fuel. at least that's what I am thinking.

Thanks,

Cardano.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Cardano

[Kelderek]

Why do you need a second MPL? Is the one you took to Duna not capable of landing back at Kerbin? If so, you don't necessarily need a MPL for landing on Kerbin, any container able to hold your kerbals and science data should work fine if you transfer over the data by EVA.

[Randazzo]

If it were me, I would just leave the MPL in orbit of Duna. You get a bonus for being in orbit of the planet the data is gathered from. Returning it to Kerbin has no actual benefit. The "data" held by the MPL does not function the same way traditional science does. It converts that data into science points which you can then transmit for no penalty, provided of course you have the electricity. Any experiment you processed into the MPL is actually still in whatever craft initially contained it.

For example, if you sent a lander down to the surface, all of the experiments are still in that lander's capsule (or in the science bits attached to it), so you can return it as well as process it.

I would say you -shouldn't- need any ISRU setup around Duna just for a mission to Duna itself, but that honestly depends on your mission profile. Ike would be preferable to me since it's less fuel intensive to land/ascend from, but then of course you either have to transfer that fuel to Duna or send your ship to Ike to refuel.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Randazzo

[Wanderfound]

No reason not to use the same ISRU rig on Duna and Ike:

[Murph]

There is *NEVER* a science benefit to landing a lab back on Kerbin. The data in it cannot be recovered, only transmitted. If you try to recover it, it will be completely lost. Experiment results stored in it are separate to that, but you just EVA a Kerbal over to it, take them, and store them in a simple pod to recover back to Kerbin. There's not even a real funds benefit to it, even if you get 100% recovery, as you've lost the launch cost and spent a bunch more on a large number of parachutes. It costs you far less, and is much easier to land the experiment results using a simple pod.

So, leave the lab orbiting Duna with a couple of scientists in it, periodically transmitting their results (you do that manually), or bring it back with scientists working in it for the return trip, but do not land it back on Kerbin. It's of far more benefit for you to leave it orbiting somewhere doing more research.

Additionally, it is impossible to transfer research data and results between labs.

N.B. The new research "data" and results totally separate to the old experiment results. You process old experiments in a lab to generate new data, but that's the only link between them. Old results can and should be recovered (or transmitted with the same transmission cap/penalty as before) after processing in the lab.

[Endersmens]

Well, he meant he was wanting to put data in the lab, and also put the experiments in the lab, bring the lab back (researching all the way I think) and then transfer all the experiments to another MPL (but it could be a regular command pod) and recover all the science points, while keeping the data in the lab to generate more science.

[Murph]

Well, he meant he was wanting to put data in the lab, and also put the experiments in the lab, bring the lab back (researching all the way I think) and then transfer all the experiments to another MPL (but it could be a regular command pod) and recover all the science points, while keeping the data in the lab to generate more science.

Sure, bringing it back to Kerbin orbit, with scientists working in it the whole time, that's a valid thing. It's landing a lab back on Kerbin that is the mistake. It's much harder than re-entry and safe landing with a pod, more costly, and has no benefit over a pod. Launching a second lab just to return the experiments from Kerbin orbit is definitely the wrong thing to do. It could work, but it's high cost and higher risk than a pod.

Personally, I'd just leave it out in Duna orbit with a couple of scientists working there. Bring the processed experiments back in a simple return pod. Less fuel to do that, and there should be more than 500 data from the Duna system, so leaving it out there is necessary to get the same-system processing bonus if you're going to return before everything is able to be processed (but then you'll need a second expedition to return with the experiments processed after the first return trip).

Bring the lab back, or don't, just don't land it on Kerbin, and don't use a lab as a KSC->LKO->KSC shuttle for experiment results.

[Cardano]

Thanks for that - but I thought that only the MPL could store more than 1 experiment of a given kind ( temp scan ) ? hence me thinking to bring the second MPL up to 'take' all those experiments home. it's really not that hard to put an MPL into LKO and bring it back safely - just dont need (20) chutes on my duna mission.

I understand the bonus from leaving the MPL researching in Duna orbit - but figure that losing that bonus wont be terrible given the long long interplanetary transfer window back from Duna. I should have the researching mostly done by the time I return launch from Duna orbit to Kerbin, but if there's anything left to research - I can have it chew on that during transfer.

so mostly - I am not 100% sure that I understand what experiments can be stored in a command pod. can I take all (20) surface samples into a single command pod as long as they are from different biomes ? ( inside Kerbin SOI I just tend to return everything individually cause it's just simpler - but once you leave Kerbin SOI things start getting more difficult )

Thanks,

Cardano.

[-Velocity-]

Sure, bringing it back to Kerbin orbit, with scientists working in it the whole time, that's a valid thing. It's landing a lab back on Kerbin that is the mistake. It's much harder than re-entry and safe landing with a pod, more costly, and has no benefit over a pod. Launching a second lab just to return the experiments from Kerbin orbit is definitely the wrong thing to do. It could work, but it's high cost and higher risk than a pod.

Personally, I'd just leave it out in Duna orbit with a couple of scientists working there. Bring the processed experiments back in a simple return pod. Less fuel to do that, and there should be more than 500 data from the Duna system, so leaving it out there is necessary to get the same-system processing bonus if you're going to return before everything is able to be processed (but then you'll need a second expedition to return with the experiments processed after the first return trip).

Bring the lab back, or don't, just don't land it on Kerbin, and don't use a lab as a KSC->LKO->KSC shuttle for experiment results.

But can't the lab store multiple copies of the same experiment, unlike any other pod? So that allows you to bring back multiple copies of the same experiment and get all the science out of it that experiment that you can possibly get, only using one pod.

Of course... I've made space planes with multiple cockpit pods on them, and each cockpit pod could hold a duplicate of an experiment on another pod of the same craft... so if you're recovering your science like that, there is no need for landing the lab.

[Randazzo]

Thanks for that - but I thought that only the MPL could store more than 1 experiment of a given kind ( temp scan ) ? hence me thinking to bring the second MPL up to 'take' all those experiments home. it's really not that hard to put an MPL into LKO and bring it back safely - just dont need (20) chutes on my duna mission.

I understand the bonus from leaving the MPL researching in Duna orbit - but figure that losing that bonus wont be terrible given the long long interplanetary transfer window back from Duna. I should have the researching mostly done by the time I return launch from Duna orbit to Kerbin, but if there's anything left to research - I can have it chew on that during transfer.

so mostly - I am not 100% sure that I understand what experiments can be stored in a command pod. can I take all (20) surface samples into a single command pod as long as they are from different biomes ? ( inside Kerbin SOI I just tend to return everything individually cause it's just simpler - but once you leave Kerbin SOI things start getting more difficult )

Thanks,

Cardano.

Experiments cannot be stored in an MPL, only in command pods, or held in the part that performed the experiment. Once you have an experiment stored in your command pod, you must process it into data for the MPL. Just having the experiment does not do anything for the lab. You have processed the data, correct? When you right click on your MPL, it show's that you have xxx/500 data, right?

If you bring the MPL back to the surface and recover it, you will lose the data it has stored, and thereby lose the science it would have generated.

[Cardano]

AHA - now that makes sense. thanks for that. no reason to bring back the MPL then. just stuff the data in a command pod and bring that back with my Duna/Ike team.

Thanks,

Cardano.

[-Velocity-]

Experiments cannot be stored in an MPL, only in command pods, or held in the part that performed the experiment. Once you have an experiment stored in your command pod, you must process it into data for the MPL. Just having the experiment does not do anything for the lab. You have processed the data, correct? When you right click on your MPL, it show's that you have xxx/500 data, right?

If you bring the MPL back to the surface and recover it, you will lose the data it has stored, and thereby lose the science it would have generated.

Ah, so you can actually no longer store experiments in the lab?

[Randazzo]

Ah, so you can actually no longer store experiments in the lab?

When could you ever?

Edit: Now that I think about it, I guess if you entered the MPL directly while holding the experiment, it would have nowhere else to go but into the MPL. It still makes little sense to drag the whole thing back needlessly.

Read this stuff.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Randazzo