Intended Behavior? MPL-LG-2 Mobile Lab. EVA vs Cockpit Science Activation

[Falconer]

Okay, screwing around with the mobile processing lab I just unlocked in v1.0.2 normal vanilla carreer mode. I also read this entire thread and didn't see anything to this. And I didn't want to clutter up a how it works thread with what may be a bug report and belong in the buts instead of questions/tutorials section.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/117461-New-Mobile-Processing-Lab-mechanics/page21

I'm noticing a huge discrepancy between data amounts available to the processing lab between cockpit activation and manual scientist EVA activation of experiments. I'm not sure if it's a bug or intended behavior.

I made up a simple plane with Goo, Pressure, Temperature, and Materials Science Lab, and the mobile processing lab to learn how it works hands on.

I then proceeded to learn that simply activating experiments from the cockpit only gave 1 data on the materials lab and pretty much nothing on anything else. However if an EVA scientist activates the experiment manually there's a much larger amount of data available to process (discovered by accident). I also tried activating the experiments from the cockpit, then using a scientist to collect them and take them to the lab. This didn't increase the data available for processing it was simply the cockpit activated values and collecting and storing.

Quick Report:

All Kerbals 1 star

Temp & Presmat attached directly to SciLab, Goo in service bay, Materials Lab in tail after Medium to Small aerodynamic fitting.

Data Amounts for Processing from the Runway.

Ship Controlled Experiments from Cockpit/Autopilot

Engy-Cockpit, Sci1-Lab, Sci2-Lab

Goo: 0, Temp: 0, Pres: 0, Mat: 1

Engy-EVA, Sci1-Lab, Sci2-Cockpit

Goo: 0, Temp: 0, Pres: 0, Mat: 1

Conclusion1: putting a scientist in the cockpit doesn't change this.

Manual Experiments from Scientist on EVA

Engy-Cockpit, Sci1-Lab, Sci2: EVA

Goo: 3, Temp: 2, Pres: 4, Mat: 8

Engy-Lab, Sci1-EVA, Sci2-Cockpit

Goo: 3, Temp: 2, Pres: 4, Mat: 8

Engy-Lab, Sci1-Outside Idle, Sci2-EVA

Goo: 3, Temp: 2, Pres: 4, Mat: 8

Sci1-Lab, Sci2-Lab, Sci3-EVA

Goo: 3, Temp: 2, Pres: 4, Mat: 8

Conclusion2: So long as a scientist collects the data manually... a large amount of data is available from each biome. (it's Kerbin surface... so yes I know small compared to elsewhere...)

Conclusion3: The lab must be manned with at least 1 kerbal. But the game doesn't care if it's a scientist or not for data collection. With no kerbals inside there was no data button on the reset/keep/process/transmit dialogue. There is no difference between 1 or 2 scientists or non-scientists in the lab while a scientist collects manual EVA data.

In flight Over KSC (Coast), All experiments repeats of previous scienceSci1-Lab, Sci2-Lab, Sci3-Cockpit

Goo: 9, Temp: 7, Pres: 10, Mat: 22, CrewReport: 4

Conclusion4: Cockpit activation while in flight is producing significant amounts of data for Kerbin at least.

Quick jaunt over to the highlands/mountains (never did science in mountains).

Cockpit Activation, Mountains Landed (new biome), (accidentally trashed Materials Lab on rough highlands landing...)

Crew Report: 1.5 science, no data

Transmitted Crew report... still no data or science on repeat.

Goo: 3 science, no data

Temp: 2.4 science, no data

Pres: 3.2 science, no data

EVA Activation, Mountains (new biome)

Goo: 3 science, 3 data

Temp: 2.4 science, 2 data

Pres: 3.6 science, 4 data

Surface Sample: 9science, 1 data

Ground EVA Report: 2.4 science, 0 data

Conclusion5: game rounds Data/Science values... 3.6 rounded up and 2.4 rounded down... not sure which rounding method is used on 5's.

Highlands (old biome I've tested before).

Highlands Ground (old biome): Scientist on EVA

Goo: 3, Temp: 2, Pres: 4

Highlands, Ground (old biome), Plane Cockpit Controlled

Goo: 0, Temp: 0, Pres: 0

Questions: Is this a bug or intended? (needing an EVA scientist manually activating experiments)

Questions: When flying a lot of data shows up without scientist on EVA? Why is landed acting differently than flying?

Obviously even with ladders... atmospheric flying vehicles don't tend to be kerbal friendly.... they like to get blown off to their demise.

I didn't loft anything into orbit for lack of time. That's the next step. Since obviously orbital kerbals on EVA is easier to test vs cockpit activation.

[NoClass]

Interesting...

I've been running experiments too, because there's an irritating lack of documentation on how science is supposed to work...

Still, I haven't noticed any difference in recovery yield through EVA activation. Specifically, I'm getting 5.4 science for recovering a Seismic Accelerometer mounted to a MK2 can on the launch pad. This is true if Bob (lvl 2 sci) is in the can or on EVA.

So your results are curious to me. How exactly are you activating "manually" on EVA? I'm assuming that means that you are controlling the scientist on EVA, getting close to the experiment module, then right clicking to perform the experiment.

The only difference the scientist seems to make for me is on the transmission efficiency, which turns to "basic analysis" (in yellow), regardless if the scientist activates manually or is in the can. (Though there is supposed to be a bonus, I get 2.4 regardless. That might be a rounding issue). This is in contrast to what the wiki currently says, that scientists give a bonus to "recovery". It's clearly a bonus to transmission, just like in the Beta.

Interestingly enough, I've noticed that the "basic analysis" bonus stays even after the scientist has left the craft and walked away. Using brackets [ ] to switch between craft doesn't seem to reset this bonus, but switching to the space center does reset the bonus. I assume that switching to a distant craft on the map will reset it as well. Experiments collected by non-scientists on EVA don't show the "basic analysis" bonus, even if they're added to a craft with a scientist on board.

It would be great if there was some sort of authority out there on how this is supposed to work.

[KerbMav]

Important question beforehand: was the scientist standing on the ground or hanging from a ladder - so being in flight for ksp in most cases - when you activated the experiments via eva?

I also was under the impression that only scientists could manually activate experiments?

[Falconer]

Yes only scientists can activate while on EVA. (toddle close then right click manual activate part)

Yes I tested it both ways. There was no difference between the scientist on a ladder while landed and one simply standing on top of the plane or solid ground.

I put the scientist on the ladder which ran right next to the PresMat and Temp. I activated it while he was on the ladder and while he was simply standing on top of the plane. I also activated the Materials lab while he was on the access ladder I put in the back and while he was standing on the solid ground. No difference either way. That thought crossed my mind too since you get different EVA crew reports for standing on the plane (normal ground) or hanging off a ladder while landed (while flying over terrain).

[Falconer]

More data... launched a very rough KerbLab into elliptical equatorial orbit (high & low orbits), also clipped atmosphere for some high altitude for experimental purposes.

Using a scientist is still producing different amounts of data than using ships controls. Only now the situation is reversed from grounded on Kerbin.

Each time the scientist on EVA produces less science than using the ships controls/cockpit.

Again all Kerbals 1 star.

High Atmosphere: Cockpit (65k)

Mat: 28, Goo: 11, Temp: 9, Pres: 13

High Atmosphere: EVA (65k)

Mat: 22, Goo: 9, Temp: 7, Pres: 11

Conclusion1: using an EVA scientist produced lower results than simply using ships controls at high altitude.

Low Orbit: EVA (72k)

Mat: 25, Goo: 10, Temp: 8, Pres: 12

Low Orbit: Cockpit (72k)

Sci1: EVA Ladder, Sci2: Lab, Engi: Cockpit

Mat: 31, Goo: 12, Temp: 10, Pres: 15, CrewRep: 6, EVARep over Biome: 10

EVAReport over Highlands: 10

Sci1: EVA Ladder, Sci2: Cockpit, Engi: Lab

Mat: 31, Goo: 12, Temp: 10, Pres: 15

Sci1: EVA Ladder, Sci2: EVA Ladder, Engi: Lab

Mat: 31, Goo: 12, Temp: 10, Pres: 15

Conclusion2: again tried various assortments of scientists on board vs offboard... it made no difference provided at least one kerbal of any type is in the lab the data is processed for the same amount.

Conclusion3: Again less data for EVA scientist compared to cockpit controls.

Duh moment here... processed the data for all but the Pressure sensor. So couldn't EVA it to figure out the differences. But anyhow EVA'ing kerbal got less science than simply using ships controls in this case as well.

High Orbit: Cockpit (285k)

Sci1: Lab, Engy: Lab, Sci2: Cockpit

Mat: 47, Goo: 19, Temp: 15, Pres: 22, Crewrep: 9, EVARep: 15

High Orbit: EvA (285k)

Sci1: EVA, Engy: Lab, Sci2: Cockpit

Pres: 18

Conclusion4: EVA scientist loses out again to ships controls.

After all that.. Kerblab has about 300 units of data and is pumping out roughly 0.4 science a day with 2 1star scientists aboard. So by the charts 2star scientists would move that up to about 2/day... and 3star 10/day. Unless you go through kerbal training camp (Mun/Minmus tour for quick 3*'s... not the grreatest investment).

Final thought... the results may correlate to the data modifier by location. Kerbin surface is getting a penalty (like 10%) which is getting applied to the ship but not the scientist EVA. Kerbin orbit gives a slight bonus IIRC... and the ship is getting this bonus, but the scientist on EVA isn't. I don't know the exact numbers there so someone who does might check that for correlation to the data numbers above. If so that is probably a bug. (no reason same experiment in same place with same equipment and kerbals in local ship vicinity would vary that much).

[cybersol]

Yep, I agree with your final thoughts. You are likely circumventing the code that applies the huge landed on Kerbin penalty by doing it from the right click menu on EVA. They should probably add the code to check that there as well.

[KerbMav]

Good job!

[Falconer]

OK... how would this thread get moved to the bugs sub-forum instead of this one?

Secondly, Eyeballing the wiki.... and a reddit thread on the processing lab.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/34jysx/the_mobile_processing_lab_an_indepth_look_at_how/

That thread puts the bonus for flying at 125% science value being the data value. (then 10% more for being landed, except Kerbin which is a -90% instead).

Quick glance at the wiki.... base science of PresMat is 12.

[TABLE=class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter]

[TR]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Kerbin[/TH]

[TD]0.3×[/TD]

[TD]42[/TD]

[TD]0.4×[/TD]

[TD]0.7×[/TD]

[TD]0.9×[/TD]

[TD]18 km[/TD]

[TD]70 km[/TD]

[TD]1×[/TD]

[TD]1.5×[/TD]

[TD]250 km[/TD]

[TD]1×

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Using those values.... expected science value of the PresMat in each location is exactly as was measured in EVA data (1.00 multiplier) after normal rounding.

12*0.3 = 03.6 Ground ~= 4 data

12*0.7 = 08.4 Flying Low ~= 8 data

12*0.9 = 10.8 Flying High ~= 11 data

12*1.0 = 12.0 Low Orbit ~= 12 data

12*1.5 = 18.0 High Orbit ~= 18 data

Increasing those figures by 25% for in-flight, now obvious that 0.5 rounds down always.

10.5 Flying low ~= 10 data

13.5 Flying high ~= 13 data

15.0 Low Orbit ~= 15 data

22.5 High Orbit ~= 22 data

The kerbin numbers at -90% make perfect sense since grounded only the Materials Lab produces a large amount of science which after -90% still has 1 left. All the rest produce small fractions which wouldn't survive the rounding down.

So yes, those numbers appear to check out exactly with the hunch in the final thoughts. The EVA scientist isn't getting the location bonus (or in one spot penalty).