Science still to plentiful in the Kerbin system

[Unfawkable]

Yet another playthrough, even with the revised tech tree, I still almost maxed out the entire tech tree with only going to Duna once, and I didn't even get the science from it returned yet.

The main reason this happens I believe is because Mun and Minmus give way too much science, particularly Mun because of his crap load of biomes. A good haul from the Mun should boost your early career significantly, but constant collection of science from the Mun to max out the entire tech tree is just absurd.

That, and the addition of the new science lab makes it even easier to max it out, I believe the lab definitely warrants a nerf on several functions.

I find this uninteresting as you quickly exhaust the use of science. To have a complete tech tree, you should be required to visit at least 3/4 of the Kerbol system.

There are several ways to remedy this, besides the obvious reduction of science gain from Mun and Minmus, the tech tree could branch out more, and have a steeper science cost curve. Instead of 5/15/45/90/160/300/550/1000 (approximately), it can be 5/15/30/100/250/600/1000/1500. This is just an example of what I have in mind, it can be solved by adding more tech tiers as well.

Additionally, a way to broaden science use could also be by doing just that, adding more uses for science points instead of just tech unlocking and exchanging it for cash. Parts that cost science along with cash to buy (every time you use them, like a price) first come to mind.

Thoughts?

[regex]

Reduce the science gains in your difficulty settings when creating your save.

[Feradose]

You can grind your way through the tech tree, or just send a couple of probes to joolian system and recover them. Its your game and its highly customisable. Just start your career the way it suits you

[KrazyKrl]

One thing that would be neat, is a sort of science "Extreme mode". Where each component of each tier costs that tier's cost.

Of course it would require a rewrite, or rework, of the science tree; but it could be pretty neat for the completionists.

Then there could be more granularity in the science tree. "Easy Mode" could be unlocking the tree as it is now; and "Extreme Mode" could be component-based with a (TierCost / N) price per component.

(Doing it like that could have something neat, like having all the components actually cheaper than the tier, because the entire tier costs that much; then you can get your components Ala-carte.)

[KSK]

No thanks, not unless there's a complete overhaul of what Science is for - which seems unlikely. I'd prefer to get a chance to use the end-tree parts within the main part of game, rather than having to work my way through most of the Kerbol system to unlock them. By way of a concrete example - I like building space stations. They look cool and they give me something to do whilst my interplanetary flights are in transit. For me, it would suck to *have* to run those interplanetary flights first to unlock all the parts that I want to include in my space station. I think it would also be pretty discouraging for less experienced players if Career mode games forced them to go interplanetary to unlock the fun parts.

At the moment, Kerbin and its muns are a nice training area where new players can unlock all the parts and play around with them and intermediate players can unlock the technologies (ISRU, decent power supplies) for more ambitious missions. Meanwhile, as Kweller pointed out, more experienced players can use interplanetary flights rather than biome-harvesting, to get their Science.

[Grumman]

I'm with KSK. I don't want to wait for a launch window and then wait three years just to get the prerequisites for a proper interplanetary mission.

[Unfawkable]

You can grind your way through the tech tree, or just send a couple of probes to joolian system and recover them. Its your game and its highly customisable. Just start your career the way it suits you

I play with remote tech, so sending a couple of probes to the Joolian system isn't as easy as it sounds. Grinding Mun for science is too easy though, that's the part that I have trouble with.

- - - Updated - - -

Reduce the science gains in your difficulty settings when creating your save.

This would reduce the science game overall, not rebalance the Mun sceince and the tech tree as I see it needed. Not everything can be customized, and even if it can, you'd need an entire playthrough (Like me) to understand what went the way you didn't want, and how to change it and customize it. This is lazy developing, customizing your experience should be changing up details to suit your style, not figuring out the entire game balance and applying it for the next time you play.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with KSK. I don't want to wait for a launch window and then wait three years just to get the prerequisites for a proper interplanetary mission.

And then people argue against warp drive because of realism. What you just said IS realistic, you don't just wait around until you have the perfect technology and travel, you do your missions with what you have, and do your next ones better with better tech.

[regex]

I don't think the balance is off at all. By the time I had unlocked the entire tech tree in my current, normal difficulty career save I'd used science from Kerbin, Duna, Dres, Ike, Gilly, the Mun, and Minmus. I only hit Minmus and Mun for science twice and only used Kerbin for the early stuff to get to the Mun. By adjusting the science gain down to half I could make Jool a requirement to unlock the tech tree. Basically I can play exactly the way I want by not prioritizing science grind and instead just playing as I want. Then, when I hit the endgame strategies, I can get some easy science for money and turn my career save into a proper sandbox save.

KSP is a pretty good sandbox in that regard, newbies can easily cut their teeth in the Kerbin system, possibly hitting Duna for the finale, while veterans can play a much looser game and pick and choose how they go about things.

[Bug_]

How about this: make a variant of career mode where in order to unlock parts of the tech tree, you need to achieve certain milestones. For example, in order to unlock basic rocketry, you need to achieve at altitude of 20km. In order to unlock engineering 101, you need to get crew reports from the grasslands, the highlands, and flying over the water. And the tech tree tells you all this. For higher tier stuff like Advanced Electrics you would need to land on Duna and land on Eve, for example. And you can still collect science...and you need to get a certain amount of science to unlock tier one, tier 2, etc. So in order to get the best rockets in the game and the best aerodynamics and all that, you would have to visit the really far planets, and you also have to spend science to unlock a particular tier before you can do the science experiments that unlock it.

This way, people who don't want to be able to unlock everything before visiting all the planets are satisfied, and the people who don't care how you can just fill up a MPL with data and time warp a few years don't bother with this mode.

[Murph]

Science balance is just fine as-is, it's not broken, and absolutely does not need fixing. It is entirely correct that the tech tree can be fully unlocked without leaving Kerbin SoI on normal/default difficulty. The game is not supposed to be a perpetual and tedious science grind.

[juvilado]

Well, if the tech tree would be expanded with near future technology, solar sails and so, well, with a very big science cost, and there would be outer planets (outer planets mod, hehe) later science points would be useful and missions to jool and beyond for science would make sense.

Anyway, science reward and tech level are not really connected in real life. I dont see how a surface sample of Mercury could help us building better engines, so the idea of milestones suggested above is not bad at all.

Edited June 14, 2015 by juvilado

[basic.syntax]

I cut my global science multiplier to 40% via new game setup option, that choice increased the value of the science lab, which some say is overpowered at default levels. I'm running three labs, staffed with scientists I rescued - never had to "hire" anyone. I don't like to timewarp just because I can... might miss an interesting contract. I have 3 ships at Duna waiting for a return window, and flights going to Eve and Jool.

Low science multiplier does increase the "science grind," but doing flights "for science!" doesn't feel boring, like grinding for money: needing to take every lame satellite contract. I left funds at default, did several tourist flybys, was able to afford to upgrade all the buildings that matter to me, and have always been able to afford to launch with any parts I have unlocked. I'll probably have it all unlocked when the Eve flyby and Duna guys get back.

[Joonatan1998]

The science slider isn't really a solution, the problem is science distribution, not the total amount.

Kerbin orbit has little science, mun and minmus have a huge amount of science that is easy but grindy to get, and other planets don't really have much more.

This means that if you set the slider low enough to require interplanetary, it becomes very hard to get to mun/minmus, and you have to grind them empty to go interplanetary, and even after that there is a lot of grind.

I think a good solution would be:

1. A bit more science on Kerbin orbit

2. A bit less science on Mun/Minmus

3. More science on other planets.

4. The first biome gives the most science (much more than now), the next one gives 70% of the first one, the third 70% of that...

These changes would make the science slider a lot more useful, giving the player more choise, and at the same time reducing grind without really hurting difficulty.

And it would even be kind of "realistic" to get less science from the the fifteenth pressure scan of the same planet. (especially the airless ones)

And the mobile processing lab is an separate problem. (basically an well of easy infinite science.)

Edited July 9, 2015 by Joonatan1998

[Dilli]

I think it depends on how you approach the collection of science.

I agree that mun / minus do have a lot of science; but once high and low orbit science is gotten on the first trip plus a biome or two from a landing it becomes more time efficient (and appealing) to go to Duna + Ike or Eve (with detachable probe) + Gilly. A single trip collecting Hi + Low orbit; High / Low atmosphere + surface samples of a single landing site on each body rewards more than going to all remaining biomes of mun or minmus.

[juvilado]

I think it depends on how you approach the collection of science.

I agree that mun / minus do have a lot of science; but once high and low orbit science is gotten on the first trip plus a biome or two from a landing it becomes more time efficient (and appealing) to go to Duna + Ike or Eve (with detachable probe) + Gilly. A single trip collecting Hi + Low orbit; High / Low atmosphere + surface samples of a single landing site on each body rewards more than going to all remaining biomes of mun or minmus.

Agree :-)

In addition, in this game each player marks his or her own goals. My ultimate longterm goal would be to visit all the bodies (with outer planets mod included) and eventually to have some posts in them; for that, the science is not a goal but a mean to achieve it, so i prefer all the science is available sooner than later for building ships that can reach the outer and less accesible planets.

[Joonatan1998]

Frankly, I'd be happy if every individual item was it's own science tree unlock. That would solve the issue pretty quickly, and introduce a LOT more decision-making into the process of advancement.

Not really...

Most of the current parts aren't really needed, there are only a few parts that are actually important.

So players would only unlock the important parts, and leave all the mostly decorative parts locked.

[VAcuumResearch]

I'm a newby player, so i can't understeand most of Kerbal's intrinsics things. Also I like the "easy way", so hard-playable, uninformative, waste-time games are not lovely for me (except Baldur's Gate I).

By the way, I only hearing stupid changes about it:

* Single-piece tech tree

* Deepest and expensive tree

* Milestones like Visit planets.

Good things:

* Milestones about altitude

Most of them overkill new players and do not report any geek solution. How is possible that vissit some platet give you hability to construct better solar panels?. No one say about AND instead OR rule for unlook the tree.

So please, instead no-reason patchs, provide meaningful prerequisites:

* Advance Electrical only after "hit" X biome or some combinations. unhide/hide/pseudo-random (easy>>hard)

* Better wings (over an unroll tree) only after X hours of usage.

* Better engine if and only if you recovered it in a "perfect state" (so post-launch study is the milestone). Or spacial station docking for in-space study.

I also thing about split science by kind, but it will be darkness, painfull and unnecesary complexity (game/knowledge/play).

ps: notice that as I'm a newby, there are a 90% that my words were stupid .

[tater]

I'd change everything. A possible idea...

1. Make time matter (I've posted a few simple ways to do this, or go the complex KCT route, instead).

2. Player picks a mission (land a kerbal on the Mun, and return, for example), then gets a budget of funds, and tech points, spread out over the mission completion duration (Mun might be a 1 year goal).

3. Buying new parts likely includes missions to test them.

4. Successfully competing the mission results in Rep and the science you actually gather. The quality of mission/budget/tech points you get for the next mission is based upon your success (rep plus science).

[CaptainTurbomuffin]

If you have more of a specific rescoure, go to the administration building and reduce the rescoure from what you have more, and increase the one that you need more. I am always short on credits, so I always turn ~half of my science into credits there. And my reputation too.

[RainDreamer]

I think we just need more tech, and also more things to do at other planets than collecting science.