What do you think about Metamizole or Pyralgine as we call it in Poland

[Camacha]

Placebos do not cure. They:

1) might

2) make you feel good

3) for a short amount of time

4) in certain cases.

So if you have a raging toothache or influenza or rhinitis or migraine, it will not help nor make you feel better. Placebo is something you need to be persuaded in by others and "therapeutic" index for taking expensive scammy sugar pills is extremely narrow.

This is not entirely true. Placebos can provide an actual and measurable boost to your well being. There is a reason medical research often includes a control group that is not actively treated, but does receive placebo treatment. Almost always the placebo group scores higher than the non-treated group.

This is emphasized by research results that show that something that inherently has no active ingredients can actually cause changes in your body. It has been shown that just looking at pictures of people being visibly sick puts your immune system to work. It will actually respond as if it has encountered pathogens without them ever being around.

Sometimes doctors even prescribe placebos instead of actual drugs when it is in the patients best interest. In those cases, actually drugging them will not yield any beneficial health effects, yet not doing anything will be detrimental. This even goes as far as medical staff having medical sounding codes for saline solutions, inert pills and sugar water. People believe in the power of the pill and if you send them home without anything they will feel not only untreated, but also sick. Of course, this raises some ethical and moral dilemmas, which makes it a slightly complicated matter.

[lajoswinkler]

I had a hell of a sinus infection and possibly acute bronchitis and got through it with two weeks of maintaining a buzz off tea with lemon wheels, cinnamon, brown sugar and sweet, sweet Sailor Jerry. It was the only thing that kept my caffeine headaches, sinus pressure and sore throat simultaneously suppressed. So take that, Western medicine!

So you were basically drunk the whole time.

This is not entirely true. Placebos can provide an actual and measurable boost to your well being. There is a reason medical research often includes a control group that is not actively treated, but does receive placebo treatment. Almost always the placebo group scores higher than the non-treated group.

This is emphasized by research results that show that something that inherently has no active ingredients can actually cause changes in your body. It has been shown that just looking at pictures of people being visibly sick puts your immune system to work. It will actually respond as if it has encountered pathogens without them ever being around.

Sometimes doctors even prescribe placebos instead of actual drugs when it is in the patients best interest. In those cases, actually drugging them will not yield any beneficial health effects, yet not doing anything will be detrimental. This even goes as far as medical staff having medical sounding codes for saline solutions, inert pills and sugar water. People believe in the power of the pill and if you send them home without anything they will feel not only untreated, but also sick. Of course, this raises some ethical and moral dilemmas, which makes it a slightly complicated matter.

What you said here doesn't really conflict with what I've said.

[Camacha]

What you said here doesn't really conflict with what I've said.

You said placebos do not cure. It is clear that they do. Yes, they help cure, but a lot of drugs or surgeries do exactly the same.

[Shpaget]

No, they don't.

The only results from placebos are the self reported subjective ones. No objectively measurable aspect of healing comes from placebo.

Results from placebos boil down to "My head hurts a bit less than before".

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200105243442106

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2004.01355.x/abstract

[Camacha]

No, they don't.

The only results from placebos are the self reported subjective ones. No objectively measurable aspect of healing comes from placebo.

Why do placebos score between the non treated control group and the active ingredient test group, as can be read in my links? I also kindly point you to the immune response caused by pictures.

[Shpaget]

Because of that self reported subjective aspect of clinical trials that does exist (but is irrelevant to actual treatment of anything serious).

[vger]

No, they don't. The only results from placebos are the self reported subjective ones. No objectively measurable aspect of healing comes from placebo.

Mind-over-matter DOES work to a degree, and placebos help stimulate that. It doesn't mean the placebo itself is the cure. What it does is encourage the body to cure itself.

There is plenty of research to support this. The simplest being the health-impact of positive vs. negative thinking.

[Camacha]

Because of that self reported subjective aspect of clinical trials that does exist (but is irrelevant to actual treatment of anything serious).

That used to be the view on how things work, but it seems that is outdated. Placebo effects go beyond self reported aspects. Physiological changes are measured in test subjects, for instance increased endorphins in the brain, meaning that is goes beyond the self reported factor. Though, of course, the second bit of your statement makes it all subjective, meaning that it could all be true, or untrue, depending on where you decide to put the threshold.

Using brain scans the University of Michigan Health System scientists found that placebo treatment triggers the brains natural painkillers, called endorphins3. This study provides the first direct evidence that the brain’s own pain-fighting chemicals play a role in the pain-related placebo effect – and that this response corresponds with a reduction in feelings of pain.

Interestingly, the patients not only report an improvement in their disease, but objective tests indicate a benefit as well, according to the report in the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology6.

Previous reviews have suggested that placebo benefits are restricted to subjective responses, like pain, but are ineffective for objective physiological outcomes. Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco, investigated whether there was a placebo response in objective measures of lung function in 55 patients with asthma.

The results of the methacholine challenge test, which gauges how well a particular drug opens constricted airways, showed that placebo did, in fact, seem to improve lung function.

A measurable improved lung function obviously goes beyond self reported benefits.

Taking Pills, Even If Placebo, Predicts Better Survival In Heart Failure

Heart-failure patients have a better chance of survival if they’re conscientious about taking their pills, even if those pills are placebos, says a Duke University Medical Center study.

In an international clinical trial of 7,599 heart failure patients1, the researchers found that good adherence was associated with similar lower mortality rates for both the placebo and an angiotensin receptor blocker (ARB), a medication used to relax and dilate blood vessels, when compared to patients who were not as adherent. Also, good adherence was associated with lower rates of hospitalization for both placebo and active drug.

Survival rates certainly go beyond self reported aspects, by definition

[vger]

Survival rates certainly go beyond self reported aspects, by definition

Huh. Well that fits in with my hypothesis about prayer, where the question of the supernatural may be irrelevant (as long as you're not trying to remove tumors by waving a wand). The point isn't whether or not you're contacting 'something.' The point is that you are trying to do something that maintains some feeling of control over the situation.

In short: If there are no solutions, doing something that accomplishes nothing, may actually accomplish more, than doing nothing.

And writing that sentence nearly made my head spin.

We are not passive creatures by nature, and are ill-equipped to deal with futility even though that is the hand that many of us are dealt. Perhaps simply the illusion that we can change the outcome, can improve our body's ability to deal with an illness.

Edited June 25, 2015 by vger

[Camacha]

Huh. Well that fits in with my hypothesis about prayer, where the question of deities may be irrelevant to a point. The point isn't whether or not you're contacting 'something.' The point is that you are trying to do something that maintains some feeling of control over the situation.

The inconvenient truth is that religious people, pound for pound, live slightly longer and healthier lives than non-religious people, for pretty much those exact reasons. Stress is mostly induced by knowing you cannot control a situation, so having some sort of placebo control and also having a support group both helps reducing stress, increasing life span.

Of course, religious advocates have all sorts of explanations for it of a less scientific nature

[vger]

Of course, religious advocates have all sorts of explanations for it of a less scientific nature

Ironically, this turns the value of knowledge into a very subjective topic. If the advocates gave the scientific reasons, in all likelihood it would kill the placebo effect.

Just... wow. Welcome to the Matrix.

Edited June 25, 2015 by vger

[Camacha]

Ironically, this turns the value of knowledge into a very subjective topic. If the advocates gave the scientific reasons, in all likelihood it would kill the placebo effect.

Just... wow. Welcome to the Matrix.

Luckily, there is some evidence that placebos also work when the subjects know they are being given placebos. Figure that one out.

But yes, it would be beneficial to believe in some deity. Unfortunately, that has proven to be beyond my powers of self deception until now. I guess I will need to deal with the futility or existence and the immensity of the universe for at least a little while longer.

[vger]

Luckily, there is some evidence that placebos also work when the subjects know they are being given placebos. Figure that one out.

Definitely sounds like simple conditioning to me. Practically from birth, we associate taking pills with getting better. So by taking a pill, we're subconsciously going to think it's helping, whether we know it's fake or not.

[Camacha]

Definitely sounds like simple conditioning to me. Practically from birth, we associate taking pills with getting better. So by taking a pill, we're subconsciously going to think it's helping, whether we know it's fake or not.

Whatever the mechanism turns out to be, we all benefit from exploiting it

[FleshJeb]

Here's a scary story: I used to get about 6 colds a year. Respiratory involvement, the whole thing. 3 years ago, I started smoking half a pack to a pack a day. Now I get one cold a year.

[Camacha]

Here's a scary story: I used to get about 6 colds a year. Respiratory involvement, the whole thing. 3 years ago, I started smoking half a pack to a pack a day. Now I get one cold a year.

A classic case of sinking the ship to catch the mouse

[vger]

Here's a scary story: I used to get about 6 colds a year. Respiratory involvement, the whole thing. 3 years ago, I started smoking half a pack to a pack a day. Now I get one cold a year.

You sure it was colds and not airborne allergens?

[FleshJeb]

You sure it was colds and not airborne allergens?

Yeah, I know the difference.

[Jesrad]

Mind-over-matter DOES work to a degree, and placebos help stimulate that. It doesn't mean the placebo itself is the cure. What it does is encourage the body to cure itself.

There is plenty of research to support this. The simplest being the health-impact of positive vs. negative thinking.

Yup. Also, when the medical issue is mostly self-inflicted unconsciously, as in roughly 90% of back pain problems, changing mindset by conveying/assimilating conscious information about the process by which it happens can make a huge difference.