MAJOR Heating Bug

[steve_v]

So it's not FAR, in fact it's not mods at all, AFAICT (repro'd most occurrences in stock install).

Small parts start overheating for no apparent reason, I've had docking ports, octo girders, SAS modules, batteries and solar panels do it so far - both stock and mod parts. The thermal system just goes mental - usually after a docking or staging event. No errors logged whatsoever, just insta-boom.

This is getting pretty ridiculous.

Where's 1.0.5? you know, the patch where SQUAD finally fixes the cluster f*** that was 1.x properly?

Alternatively, where's the download for the non-broken version of the game? One we can actually play without stuff unexpectedly blowing up?

[DaMichel]

I have the suspicion that this bug is some sort of numerical instability that occurs with numerical solutions of differential equations when the time step is chosen too large, i.e. solutions will oscillate to infinity like so

(blue line, obviously)

I think i actually saw some temperature oscillations in my crafts where the bug happened.

I guess KSP uses the simple Euler method to solve the heat transfer equations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_method. Does anyone know?

If this is true, Squad would be better off using backward Euler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_Euler_method which works with arbitrarily large time steps. It would require the solution of a matrix equation for each step but that cost could be spread over several frames by solving only every couple of frames.

[Sheppard]

I also noticed with the F11 temperature overlay that temperatures did indeed fluctuate. In my screenshot above, underneath the large SAS module that is generating the heat is a large adaptor. With the temperature overlay I noticed that the SAS module would overheat, moments after it would return to normal, but the adapter would overheat, and a second later return to normal values, while the SAS would overheat again and eventually explode.

[Sheppard]

Just a thougt here, but can you edit the ship in the save file, so that the SAS module that is overheating is being replaced by another part, a fuel tank for example? Might fix the problem, or not.

[Sheppard]

Tried to rendezvous a small probe with the glitched station. The SAS module will still overheat and explode at about 160m from the target. Damn it! I really need that bloody station in one piece

[Starwaster]

Tried to rendezvous a small probe with the glitched station. The SAS module will still overheat and explode at about 160m from the target. Damn it! I really need that bloody station in one piece

Set conduction factor to 1. (Alt-F12 -> Physics -> Thermal -> Set Conduction Factor slider)

If that cools things down for you then gradually increase Conduction Factor, stopping before things get uncomfortable. (or just leave it at 1)

Note however that reentries will become more dangerous because skin heat will leak through at a slower rate. (that is in fact one of my tricks in the latest Deadly Reentry)

[includao]

This was related to FAR in my case. I uninstalled and reinstalled the lastest version

[Sheppard]

Set conduction factor to 1. (Alt-F12 -> Physics -> Thermal -> Set Conduction Factor slider)

If that cools things down for you then gradually increase Conduction Factor, stopping before things get uncomfortable. (or just leave it at 1)

Note however that reentries will become more dangerous because skin heat will leak through at a slower rate. (that is in fact one of my tricks in the latest Deadly Reentry)

Setting Conduction to 1 WORKED! No more crazy overheating out of the blue. I did some maneuvers, placed the station in another orbit, did some science, EVA's and set back the conduction to the default value of 20.000, and nothing exploded or overheated.

Many thanks! Me and my Kerbonauts are forever grateful! Danger averted.

[Dugeusclin]

Same here.

Octogonal struts, removed them, then the batteries overheat.

Sofar nothing works, rebuilding everything doesn't help, disabling the heatslider completely seems a bit silly but I can't think of anything else ...

[OmegaT]

[Numeric analysis stuff]

I might have witnessed something to support that. While maneuvering a probe to dock at a station, one of its radial attachment points suddenly exploded. I turned on thermal debug and caught another attachment point overheating. Its Conduction Flux was oscillating like crazy! Huge positive and negative values. Eventually it joined its brother in demise. Your explanation kinda fits the bill.

[Starwaster]

Same here.

Octogonal struts, removed them, then the batteries overheat.

Sofar nothing works, rebuilding everything doesn't help, disabling the heatslider completely seems a bit silly but I can't think of anything else ...

Not even this?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/126664-MAJOR-Heating-Bug?p=2091430&viewfull=1#post2091430

[Amedee]

So it's not FAR, in fact it's not mods at all, AFAICT (repro'd most occurrences in stock install).

Small parts start overheating for no apparent reason, I've had docking ports, octo girders, SAS modules, batteries and solar panels do it so far - both stock and mod parts. The thermal system just goes mental - usually after a docking or staging event. No errors logged whatsoever, just insta-boom.

This is getting pretty ridiculous.

Where's 1.0.5? you know, the patch where SQUAD finally fixes the cluster f*** that was 1.x properly?

Alternatively, where's the download for the non-broken version of the game? One we can actually play without stuff unexpectedly blowing up?

Insta-boom after a staging event? Yeah I get that too. I don't know if it is related but fast forward to 1:34.

And then a kaboom at the staging event on 2:43.

[steve_v]

Is it just me, or is your camera focus dropping behind the craft at ~6KM?

I've seen this issue before, and it's not the heating bug discussed here. At that time it was Realchute, that particular issue was fixed long ago but I do recall similar reports on the forum more recently.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, I can't recall which mod was causing it this time around. Tweakscale? Maybe? Dunno.

Have a look in your log, it may be obvious. Any non-stock parts on that craft?

[Kryxal]

I thought that sort of thing (wonky tracking) tended to happen when the rocket broke but kept going anyway.

[Amedee]

Is it just me, or is your camera focus dropping behind the craft at ~6KM?

I've seen this issue before, and it's not the heating bug discussed here. At that time it was Realchute, that particular issue was fixed long ago but I do recall similar reports on the forum more recently.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, I can't recall which mod was causing it this time around. Tweakscale? Maybe? Dunno.

Have a look in your log, it may be obvious. Any non-stock parts on that craft?

I have two issues: the camera focus, and the insta-boom. I have all the mods you mention. And unfortunately it's not obvious.

All stock parts AFAIK.

Wait, I found it.

[EXC 19:04:28.188] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.SetDamageLabel ()
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.AddDamage (Single dmg)
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.CheckGeeForces ()
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.FixedUpdate ()

A lot of these.

And this right after launch.

[EXC 19:02:54.492] IndexOutOfRangeException: Array index is out of range.
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARPartGeometry.VehicleVoxel.CrossSectionData (FerramAerospaceResearch.FARPartGeometry.VoxelCrossSection[] crossSections, Vector3 orientationVector, System.Int32& frontIndex, System.Int32& backIndex, System.Double& sectionThickness, System.Double& maxCrossSectionArea)
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARAeroComponents.VehicleAerodynamics.CalculateVesselAeroProperties ()
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARAeroComponents.VehicleAerodynamics.CreateVoxel ()
    UnityEngine.Debug:LogException(Exception)
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARThreading.ThreadSafeDebugLogger:Update()

Edited July 24, 2015 by Amedee

[almagnus1]

Insta-boom after a staging event? Yeah I get that too. I don't know if it is related but fast forward to 1:34.

And then a kaboom at the staging event on 2:43.

A) You're going WAAAAAY to fast for that low in the atmosphere

Don't use the prograde markers, as the computer is WAAAAY to twitchy. Use MechJeb's for this as it just does it better.

C) You screwed up the gravity turn, as that's basically a .90 launch profile, not a 1.0. Gravity Turns complete best when you turn SAS off.

What happened was a ship that was going too fast, broke apart, then blew up cause you did something aerodynamically stupid.

That's not the heating system there.

[Starwaster]

I have two issues: the camera focus, and the insta-boom. I have all the mods you mention. And unfortunately it's not obvious.

All stock parts AFAIK.

Wait, I found it.

[EXC 19:04:28.188] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.SetDamageLabel ()
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.AddDamage (Single dmg)
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.CheckGeeForces ()
    DeadlyReentry.ModuleAeroReentry.FixedUpdate ()

A lot of these.

And this right after launch.

[EXC 19:02:54.492] IndexOutOfRangeException: Array index is out of range.
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARPartGeometry.VehicleVoxel.CrossSectionData (FerramAerospaceResearch.FARPartGeometry.VoxelCrossSection[] crossSections, Vector3 orientationVector, System.Int32& frontIndex, System.Int32& backIndex, System.Double& sectionThickness, System.Double& maxCrossSectionArea)
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARAeroComponents.VehicleAerodynamics.CalculateVesselAeroProperties ()
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARAeroComponents.VehicleAerodynamics.CreateVoxel ()
    UnityEngine.Debug:LogException(Exception)
    FerramAerospaceResearch.FARThreading.ThreadSafeDebugLogger:Update()

What version of DRE are you using and what KSP version?

[Amedee]

A) You're going WAAAAAY to fast for that low in the atmosphere

Don't use the prograde markers, as the computer is WAAAAY to twitchy. Use MechJeb's for this as it just does it better.

C) You screwed up the gravity turn, as that's basically a .90 launch profile, not a 1.0. Gravity Turns complete best when you turn SAS off.

What happened was a ship that was going too fast, broke apart, then blew up cause you did something aerodynamically stupid.

That's not the heating system there.

So if I understand you correctly, my craft already broke apart at 1:34, when it flew off the screen?

Yes I know I was going too fast and my gravity turn was .....

I haven't unlocked the necessary MechJeb nodes to do a gravity turn.

I'll try again with minimal throttle and SAS off. But shouldn't MechJeb limit my throttle?

EDIT: I kept my speed below 210 m/s until I was at 16 km, then went full throttle. I reached 20 km at 506 m/s.

SAS was off.

I still had an explosion and all parts exploded due to overheating.

ANYWAY. That still doesn't explain the errors in the log files.

What version of DRE are you using and what KSP version?

7.2.2

1.0.4

I deleted the DeadlyReentry directory and it still happens, so DRE has nothing to do with it.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Amedee

[AdmiralSirJohn]

I'm having insta-booms when reaching target altitude.

Here are my installed mods (including version numbers where known, all others latest available on Kerbalstuff):

ASET 1.3.0

BAHA SP

CHAKA Exploration Odyssey

CryoEngines

FAR

Fustek Station Parts X0.04-4 DEV BUILD

Interstellar Fuel Switch

Raster Prop Monitor

Kerbal Engineer

Kerbal Joint Reinforcement

MechJeb 2

Near Future packs (construction, solar, spacecraft, engines, electrical)

Final Frontier

RealChute

Ship Manifest

SpaceY Lifters

It seems to be a heat issue, but it happens so fast that the indicator doesn't even show up.

Log file available at https://www.dropbox.com/s/poneeqe8go7ervw/output_log.txt?dl=0

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. I'll start by removing FAR, then I'll set conduction to 1. If it keeps happening, I'll come back and report.

[YANFRET]

Try removing the fustek DLL that was included with Chaka

[steve_v]

For reference, the mods I don't have (and I don't have that issue):

CHAKA

ASET

Fustek

I'm guessing it's a mod interaction at work here. As YANFRET suggests, if both Fustek and CHAKA are installing the Fustek dll (and presumably different versions) that's where I'd start.

[YANFRET]

For informational purposes, the next update to Chaka will not include the old fustek DLL which may be causing this problem. Also you can safely remove the DLL from your current version of Chaka without significant consequence, and there is a simple CFG edit to restore operation of the cupola windows on Chaka's forum thread which I can paste over if needed.

[Kedwin Hubble]

I have the suspicion that this bug is some sort of numerical instability that occurs with numerical solutions of differential equations when the time step is chosen too large, i.e. solutions will oscillate to infinity like so

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Instability_of_Euler%27s_method.svg/220px-Instability_of_Euler%27s_method.svg.png

(blue line, obviously)

I think i actually saw some temperature oscillations in my crafts where the bug happened.

I guess KSP uses the simple Euler method to solve the heat transfer equations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_method. Does anyone know?

If this is true, Squad would be better off using backward Euler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_Euler_method which works with arbitrarily large time steps. It would require the solution of a matrix equation for each step but that cost could be spread over several frames by solving only every couple of frames.

My experience with this bug makes me think this is the problem. When I encounter this bug, the thermal readouts from KER fluctuate wildly as temperatures quickly go off the scales.

[Phlex]

I'm having insta-booms when reaching target altitude.

I have that happening to a battery after deploying the fairings. It's a probe with a couple of stacked Z200. As soon as the fairings go, the 3rd battery from the top explodes due to overheating. Interestingly it's the one that has two DTS-M1 antennas and two Mk2-R parachutes attached to it. after the explosion the antennas and parachutes are "slightly warm" (according to the F11 overlay). Under the fairing all parts, including the battery, were fine (bright red).

"Overlapping" mods:

Interstellar

FAR

Kerbal Engineer

Kerbal Joint Reinforcement

MechJeb 2

[Ryds]

Is there a way to turn ALL heating effects off? I'm at the stage where I just want to play the game without random parts randomly blowing up at random moments. So I don't care about reentry heating any more - the calculations behind that just seem like plucked from the air nonsense anyway.

Really very poor stuff from the developer. I've recommended this game to 3 of my mates, they've all bought it too - just before 1.0 was released so I feel pretty embarrassed that I recommended they waste their money on an unfinished "feature complete" release.

As for me, any enthusiasm for this game is pretty much gone due to this mess, so if there is a way to get rid of heating I'd be grateful if someone would let me know.

Thanks.