Discussion thread - BD Armory AI tournaments

[Alphasus]

that is why i made countermeasures worth less, so that you can have both types.

[colmo]

I thought your costings looked pretty good.

Meanwhile, Bahamuto is a machine:

Update v0.9.4

= New =

- Stack nodes for missiles/rockets/pods

- Stack node for AdjustableRail

- Adjustable rail will update the position of attached objects when height is adjusted (no more reattaching)

Demonstration GFY

= Fixes =

- Fixed guard turrets not aiming/firing when 'visually' acquiring a target

- Fixed missile not receiving target data from weapon manager if fired via right-click menu or action group

- Fixed missiles being removed from guard's target database

- Fixed guards not engaging missiles with new targeting system

I'm heading out to watch the Perseids meteor shower, so if someone could try this out and report back, would be appreciated.

- - - Updated - - -

The stack nodes, new countermeasures and radomes probably mean every plane will need a redesign.

[Alphasus]

hence why i expect guns to be in use by the week

[colmo]

I PMed Baha about missile behaviour and it was as I thought (I'll explain once Alphasus' contest is over, don't want to show my hand yet!). He also explained why guns were so devastating in the old system - they cheated if they were nearly on target, which is why when bullets were on target, they tended to hit the centre of mass. It's akin to a turret with very restricted degrees of movement, just enough to score a hit occasionally.

Now, the AI planes can blast away at each other all day without success, so fuel becomes an issue, and less rounds may be necessary due to increased battle length.

[colmo]

I've just spent some time using the two different radar dishes and data receiver. They radically change the shape of scenarios to something a little more realistic - no insanely low minimum altitudes, and to kick things off, you need to trigger the guard mode by getting something of the enemy in the air (I was thinking two small SRBs, probe core and weapon manager of each team, haven't figured how to fire them simultaneously yet), where the radar can spot it. It also makes sense to pick your shots with a long firing delay, which avoids wasting missiles. The downside is planes can only scramble so far from the active craft - one blew up on take off 8kms away due to precision errors at range.

The format with radar would be slightly different:

- Visual radius would be reduced to 270 degrees.

- Visual range would be 2.5 to 3.5 km, depending on starting conditions.

- Each team would get a ground radar; I'd prefer the large, non-tracking radar so the planes still have to do the work. It might even be strategic to destroy the radar, and that could be worth something in the tie, a bit like Capture the Flag, or in this case, Detonate the Dish...

[colmo]

My personal rules on wing spam and clipping are:

- no sandwiching of wings

- elevons can only be attached to a fixed wing's edges, either leading, trailing or tip.

- control surfaces should not be significantly clipping though other parts in their normal range of movement.

- fixed wings should not clip inside fuselage more than necessary for seamless fit and finish - over 50% of surface area concealed is a definite no-no. A specific exception is engine nacelles built into the wings.

Edit:

Engines shouldn't be clipped by any wings, and I try to avoid slicing through intakes with wings.

Edit2:

An elevon may be fitted to fuselage or wing surfaces if, and only if, it has all pitch, yaw and roll deactivated (I.e. it's used as an airbrake or fixed winglet)

Edited August 21, 2015 by colmo

[Alphasus]

I only broke one rule here: the sandwiching.

[Probus]

I would like to suggest you include a few of the aircraft mods such as KAX, Firespitter, MK2 upgrades, etc... as valid packs for the league.

[illectro]

I'm very conscious that you guys have already been doing this for some time, and I don't want you steal your thunder, but I'd really like to run an AI tournament on my channel as a precursor for future KOS challenges.

Would there be anyone who'd like to participate in this series?

[Alphasus]

I would like to suggest you include a few of the aircraft mods such as KAX, Firespitter, MK2 upgrades, etc... as valid packs for the league.

This was meant to be stock. If you want KAX there is a WW2 pack, but we try to keep this accessible.

[Zixor]

Illectro,

Sure, I'd submit a plane for this. What kind of weapons restrictions are you considering using, and would you be running FAR?

[Slam_Jones]

@Illectro - I'd be willing to submit my Gladius to get massacred

Here's the post (and d/l link) in the Top Gun AI thread.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Slam_Jones

[illectro]

I think I want to start with guns only, and biplanes.

(that way if you lose a wing you have spares!)

[colmo]

Hi Scott,

The WW2 guys are already well on the way for guns-only combat.

Since BDA v0.9.x, radar opens up a whole new field of possibility, as it did in real military aviation. It brings in all sorts of factors, like visible range and viewing arc, wingmen with radomes broadcasting to receivers on lead aircraft, etc. My OP has a few ideas.

As far as going for it, I made a conscious decision to throw my ideas out there and see what came of them. You running a YouTube series based on them is about as much as I could hope for.

I'd love to take part!

[tetryds]

I think I want to start with guns only, and biplanes.

(that way if you lose a wing you have spares!)

Yes we have a biplane category, here is the challenge: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/130035

But the current release version of FAR has issues with biplanes, they generate too little lift and summon a b9pwing shielding bug, both are corrected on the next version.

So biplane battles are on hold for now, after some mods update and I finish with the current piston monoplanes, biplanes will come back, and I will probably already have the barebones of my ww2 weapons pack ready.

FAR is updating as we speak, by the way.

[colmo]

Bahamuto has updated BDA - guns should be viable again.

There's some AI changes but I'm going AFK until Monday or so. I wouldn't mind some test video of the new behaviour to watch in the meantime!

[Darren9]

They seem as accurate as before, I didn't tune that Su, just turned all the AI settings to max and a gun fight hasn't lasted more than a minute or 2. I'm not sure about going guns only though, flares aren't as effective and missiles force an avoiding pattern. I still think it'll be a race to get to height and make the turn first.

[BahamutoD]

Here's another clip with ww2 type crafts:

http://gfycat.com/PertinentSnarlingDamselfly

A common kill is when an AI decides to fly straight for a bit (if it keeps turning and turning for >15 seconds and hasn't made progress) and an enemy gets on its tail - easy kill.

I've since wrote some behavior to detect that it's being shot at and to take evasive actions at that point. You'll see it in the next update.

Edited August 29, 2015 by BahamutoD

[tetryds]

Here's another clip with ww2 type crafts:

http://gfycat.com/PertinentSnarlingDamselfly

A common kill is when an AI decides to fly straight for a bit (if it keeps turning and turning for >15 seconds and hasn't made progress) and an enemy gets on its tail - easy kill.

I've since wrote some behavior to detect that it's being shot at and to take evasive actions at that point. You'll see it in the next update.

This is great, thanks for the focus on ww2 airplanes

You should try them with FAR, even on 0.8.3 they do some impressive stuff sometimes.

[colmo]

Loving Baha's sneak peeks on what's coming.

The previewed wingman functionality looks promising for the thread's original 2v2 combat format. What happens when the lead craft is taken out? I'm guessing the wingman stops following and becomes independent (no sense plunging to the ground on the coat tails of a crashing plane)?

I'm wondering what happens if the wingman is vastly inferior to the lead plane and can't keep up? Is there a point where it gives up trying to follow? I'm thinking of a reconnaissance, radome-encrusted plane which tags along after fighters, lighting up targets for them while lagging behind the action for their own benefit.

I'm also thinking about my interceptor challenge - what would make life interesting is if the antagonist bomber(s) has fighters guarding it - the behaviour for those would ideally be wingman-type following until engaged by enemy, at which point they break formation and engage the enemy, only returning to formation once no threat is detected anymore.

I suppose that leads on to a patrol mode - the ability to circle or stay close to a craft or fixed point, at low, efficient thrust, until an enemy engages them, and return to that behaviour once safe. This would be nice for their default circling behaviour - turbofans really chug through the fuel at max thrust!

Edited August 29, 2015 by colmo

[Mars Rocks]

Hey Scott,

A few posts back you requested biplanes with BD armory guns. I have a rather unique one for you.

http://kerbalx.com/marsrocks/BIPLANE-II

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[colmo]

I've added FAR Fighter Challenge to the OP list of tournaments.

[colmo]

Another BD Armory update!

Update v0.9.9

= New =

- Browning .50cal AN/M2 Fixed Gun

- Added auto proximity gun target tracking feature (currently used on fixed vulcan and browning)

- FLIR Ball Targeting Camera

- Dynamic launch zones for missiles

- DLZ display for Radar and TGP

- Guard will choose an appropriate anti-air missile depending on target distance and missile's DLZ

- AI Pilot will go evasive if it detects someone firing guns at it

= Changes =

- AI is better at trying to stay behind target

- Guard only force-enables RWR if missiles are detected (note: guard needs RWR to detect incoming radar missiles)

- Guard FOV will narrow on engaged target

- Improved and re-implemented Pilot AI launch authorization so they won't take missile shots that will obviously miss

- Added targeting info to missiles' description where it was missing

= Fixes =

- Re-enabled guard tweakables in editor

- Fixed LoadedVessels being reset when using hyperedit to place vessel

- Fixed shells being ejected in front of gun when moving

- Fixed radar window resetting when another vessel loads

- Fixed parts disappearing from BDA category after a database reload

- Removed BDA parts from utility category

- Removed 'aam' homing type from HEKV-1 (still untested)

---

Notes:

- I didn't include the wingman commander yet; it's not finished yet and will need alot of GUI, so I'll wait for KSP1.1 for that too.

- Modders: check the new launch range values for missiles. This will help players and AI choose a weapon/time a shot based on how far a target is.

- The "auto proxy gun target tracking" automatically brings up the target leading indicators when you're near a target for the guns that use it - no need for radar lock.

- When a guard engages a target, it will have a sort of tunnel vision on the target - one effect is that it will be more likely to detect incoming gunfire and missiles from that target, but less likely to notice a different target firing at it.

http://puu.sh/jVsT0/16fdb81124.png

[colmo]

This video by Bahamuto D looks exciting!

https://youtu.be/moGrLkBaOl0

[MostExcellent]

Is there any interest in a JSF or multi-class tournament? I would be able to run it if there were.

For JSF I think it should be like in OP but with a few changes.

it would have various components with points being awarded based on placement in various trials. The design with the most points wins.

Air to air, basically a 2v2 dogfight tournament with the other competing planes.

Ground attack, planes compete to be the fastest to take out a ground target guarded by a goalkeeper and a sam battery or other similar defenses without being destroyed.

Bomber intercept, planes compete to be the fastest to take out a turreted bomber coming from the island runway without being destroyed. It may have an escort if that makes it more interesting.

Combined, like ground assault but two planes are used and a fighter is scrambled against the attacking planes.

I am not sure how it would be done but I think it would be cool to have a bomber escort trial as well.

Any interest? Any ideas on how a points system like that of the Top Gun tournaments could work? Suggestions?

Edited December 19, 2015 by MostExcellent
Clarifications