Private ownership of mineable asteroids moved into Earth orbit

[shynung]

Also if they dont sign the treaty, then anyone can destroy their stuff in space without consequences.

Of course. Those nations who prefers not to sign the treaty usually has nothing in space worth defending, anyway.

EDIT: Not entirely without consequences; at the very least, it would invite the ire of the owner, rendering them much less likely to be friendly.

Edited July 27, 2015 by shynung

[Shpaget]

Also if they dont sign the treaty, then anyone can destroy their stuff in space without consequences.

No, not without consequence.

The owner has every right to defend his stuff, having signed the treaty or not.

I would also like to point out that it's the countries that sign treaties, not private companies.

[Kerbart]

Replace "minerals" with "whales" and "space" with "the ocean" and you can see exactly what will happen:

• There's no law or treaty that will stop you
  
• If there is a law or treaty you can safely ignore it
  
• If there is an outcry over said law or treaty you can claim it's for "scientific purposes"
  
• If there is an outcry over "scientific missions" you can safely ignore it (the “Yeah? So stop me†approach
  
• If someone decides to do something about your "scientific missions" you can, depending on how effective those protest missions are, resort to violence. Heck, even call in the navy of your home country  all it takes is just a sufficient bribe contribution to the election campaigns of some key officials

So basically, yes, if your technology allows you to capture an asteroid and mine it, you can do it. You're literally in lawless territory. If a competitor sends in a small unmanned probeâ€â€or a bigger manned vesselâ€â€it might mysteriously "malfunction". Unless there's going a to some form of law enforcement, outer space will be wilder than the wild west.

[shynung]

Don't private companies that operate from inside a country that signed the treaty would also be subject to the treaty themselves?

Yes, they might simply open a subsidiary elsewhere if the answer's yes, I just want to know.

[vger]

ok think as you want... keep imagine that any guy in an island will be able to screw the plans of all world powers and the rest of the world with total freedom...

http://www.sealandgov.org/

It should also be pointed out that every sovereign nation more or less began this way.

And that by the way might another way to circumvent a space treaty. Declare sovereignty on an asteroid and then form a trade alliance with your mother nation.

Edited July 27, 2015 by vger

[MinimumSky5]

From reading this thread, my opinion is that the Outer Space Treaty wasn't created with asteroid mining in mind, and as a result it would likely have to be replaced with some sort of binding resolution.

[Nibb31]

Yep, before anyone gets to that stage, there will have to be some sort of negociation or legal process to specify the legal framework. Nobody has any interest in investing in unregulated territory because there are too many unknowns. They will put pressure on FAA, NASA or other national authorities in order to know where they stand.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Nibb31

[Shpaget]

Nobody has any interest in investing in unregulated territory because there are too many unknowns.

Unregulated is by definition without regulation, so, quite literally, anything and everything goes.

They will put pressure on FAA, NASA or other national authorities in order to know where they stand.

None of those have a say in the matter.

[shynung]

None of those have a say in the matter.

Not yet. But if the 'space rush' started, either them or some other agency would attempt regulate it, starting from simple stuff like defining 'orbital lanes', that kind of stuff.

[Shpaget]

Tell me one thing.

If a private company launches a mining rig, lands it on an asteroid, proclaims the asteroid its property and warns that they will point a couple of autocannons at anything that approaches their asteroid within less than 10 000 km, then proceed to sell the mined materials (water, LOX & LH2, to make the discussion simple) in LEO, what can any governmental organization do about it?

The worst thing it can do is wave a finger at the corp and say "Bad corporation!".

Then they will proceed to buy the fuel in bulk, because that's the most sensible thing to do.

[shynung]

Tell me one thing.

If a private company launches a mining rig, lands it on an asteroid, proclaims the asteroid its property and warns that they will point a couple of autocannons at anything that approaches their asteroid within less than 10 000 km, then proceed to sell the mined materials (water, LOX & LH2, to make the discussion simple) in LEO, what can any governmental organization do about it?

The worst thing it can do is wave a finger at the corp and say "Bad corporation!".

Then they will proceed to buy the fuel in bulk, because that's the most sensible thing to do.

Firing a gigantic orbital laser cannon on said mining rig would be one thing, if they ever have any. They're governments; given enough resources and public support, what can't they do?

Though, seriously, companies don't just exist as material objects like mining rigs or factories. There are administrative divisions (very likely on earth), corporate bank accounts, investors, stock traders, and other assets. A country that disagrees with what the companies are doing could simply freeze their financial capabilities (freezing bank accounts, for example), render their activities (or even mere presence) illegal to open ways to prosecute their employees, block access to important business partners, trade sanctions, and much more. Even if said asteroid is firmly gripped upon by the mining rig, the company can be made to not get anything useful out of it through various legal channels.

[Kerbart]

Firing a gigantic orbital laser cannon on said mining rig would be one thing, if they ever have any. They're governments; given enough resources and public support, what can't they do?

Though, seriously, companies don't just exist as material objects like mining rigs or factories. There are administrative divisions (very likely on earth), corporate bank accounts, investors, stock traders, and other assets. A country that disagrees with what the companies are doing could simply freeze their financial capabilities (freezing bank accounts, for example), render their activities (or even mere presence) illegal to open ways to prosecute their employees, block access to important business partners, trade sanctions, and much more. Even if said asteroid is firmly gripped upon by the mining rig, the company can be made to not get anything useful out of it through various legal channels.

Keyword legal. Their corporate sharks attorneys will be very quick to point out that it's likely outside the jurisdiction of the court. Large corporations are practically immune to legislation and don't pay any taxes when they are in the US, let alone if they're outside the earth.

[Nibb31]

Tell me one thing.

If a private company launches a mining rig, lands it on an asteroid, proclaims the asteroid its property and warns that they will point a couple of autocannons at anything that approaches their asteroid within less than 10 000 km, then proceed to sell the mined materials (water, LOX & LH2, to make the discussion simple) in LEO, what can any governmental organization do about it?

The worst thing it can do is wave a finger at the corp and say "Bad corporation!".

Then they will proceed to buy the fuel in bulk, because that's the most sensible thing to do.

First of all, governments are always going to find a way to tax that corporation. It will have some existence in a legal framework on Earth, presumably in a developed country with an organized government. They will be operating from facilities based in a country. If it's an off-shore company operating illegally and evading taxes, it will get shut down and won't last for long enough to recoup the investment.

[shynung]

Keyword legal. Their corporate sharks attorneys will be very quick to point out that it's likely outside the jurisdiction of the court. Large corporations are practically immune to legislation and don't pay any taxes when they are in the US, let alone if they're outside the earth.

Don't really know how US companies do (or do not) their taxes, so no opinion on that.

Some other countries, though, put a bigger grip on their companies than others. Even if they're not actually taxing their companies (tax-havens), there may well be some laws that basically says, 'If you do X, your operations will be declared illegal, and we will confiscate all your assets', or something to that effect.

Even then, they will get their taxes. Through tariffs, customs, and some other things I may have missed.

[Shpaget]

Firing a gigantic orbital laser cannon on said mining rig would be one thing, if they ever have any. They're governments; given enough resources and public support, what can't they do?

The company would rip them a new one.

Governments can't just go about destroying private property. Especially outside their jurisdiction.

Though, seriously, companies don't just exist as material objects like mining rigs or factories. There are administrative divisions (very likely on earth), corporate bank accounts, investors, stock traders, and other assets. A country that disagrees with what the companies are doing could simply freeze their financial capabilities (freezing bank accounts, for example), render their activities (or even mere presence) illegal to open ways to prosecute their employees, block access to important business partners, trade sanctions, and much more. Even if said asteroid is firmly gripped upon by the mining rig, the company can be made to not get anything useful out of it through various legal channels.

Just like they do with drug cartel money and bank accounts, right?

First of all, governments are always going to find a way to tax that corporation. It will have some existence in a legal framework on Earth, presumably in a developed country with an organized government. They will be operating from facilities based in a country. If it's an off-shore company operating illegally and evading taxes, it will get shut down and won't last for long enough to recoup the investment.

Yeah, right.

Double Irish arrangement

[shynung]

Governments can't just go about destroying private property. Especially outside their jurisdiction.

What do you think war is?

Just like they do with drug cartel money and bank accounts, right?

Yep. Though, to be fair, drug cartels simply have other ways to maintain financial capability. Ground operations can be hidden carefully. Not so space operations; anyone with a good enough telescope can see what's going on.

[AngelLestat]

Come on guys!!! this is not rocket science!!

This not difficult to understand.... And stop thinking as we were in times before the war world II!

The world does not work like that anymore.

Case1

No, not without consequence.

The owner has every right to defend his stuff, having signed the treaty or not.

I would also like to point out that it's the countries that sign treaties, not private companies.

Tell me one thing.

If a private company launches a mining rig, lands it on an asteroid, proclaims the asteroid its property and warns that they will point a couple of autocannons at anything that approaches their asteroid within less than 10 000 km, then proceed to sell the mined materials (water, LOX & LH2, to make the discussion simple) in LEO, what can any governmental organization do about it?

The worst thing it can do is wave a finger at the corp and say "Bad corporation!".

Then they will proceed to buy the fuel in bulk, because that's the most sensible thing to do.

So you said the company has the right to defend their stuff? Really? what law protect them if they company is in a country who dint sign the treaty?

Anybody can destroy all their equipment if they want.. defend that will cost much more than the profits it can get from it.

And in earth the things will not be easy for this company either.. the same for the country that shelters this company... so what you earn with all that?

What is the problem that other company install in the same asteroid mining? Meanwhile does not put in risk your equipment? If you have some problem in some machinary, you can sent repairs in launchers from the other company if they have extra place.. without the need to launch your own emergency backup.

Case2

Replace "minerals" with "whales" and "space" with "the ocean" and you can see exactly what will happen:

• There's no law or treaty that will stop you
  
• If there is a law or treaty you can safely ignore it
  
• If there is an outcry over said law or treaty you can claim it's for "scientific purposes"
  
• If there is an outcry over "scientific missions" you can safely ignore it (the “Yeah? So stop me†approach
  
• If someone decides to do something about your "scientific missions" you can, depending on how effective those protest missions are, resort to violence. Heck, even call in the navy of your home country  all it takes is just a sufficient bribe contribution to the election campaigns of some key officials

So basically, yes, if your technology allows you to capture an asteroid and mine it, you can do it. You're literally in lawless territory. If a competitor sends in a small unmanned probeâ€â€or a bigger manned vesselâ€â€it might mysteriously "malfunction". Unless there's going a to some form of law enforcement, outer space will be wilder than the wild west.

There is a huge difference.. this treaty does not prohibits celestial body mining, but you cant claim property of celestial bodies.

The other difference that you will not catch the same whale that other company is catching..

The international whaling commision had a limit of catch, only in recent years they reduce that and now its only for "scientific purpose"... Japan was on court due this last year and they lose. The thing is that is hard to monitor each boat to see if they are hunting or not.

Case3

http://www.sealandgov.org/

It should also be pointed out that every sovereign nation more or less began this way.

And that by the way might another way to circumvent a space treaty. Declare sovereignty on an asteroid and then form a trade alliance with your mother nation.

This is not recognized and does not apply in any court. The same when someone started to sell moon terrains..

The only way why this thing keeps floating, is because nobody gives a ...., and there is nothing of value to steal (in case nobody is on board and located in international waters).

So yeah, someone can go and said.. this is my asteroid.. it does not matter, because your claim does not have any basis.

[vger]

This is not recognized and does not apply in any court. The same when someone started to sell moon terrains..The only way why this thing keeps floating, is because nobody gives a ...., and there is nothing of value to steal (in case nobody is on board and located in international waters).

"What" is not recognized?

You're not even making any sense. The sale of Lunar property was always meant to be a hoax, and people buy star names even though they know that Scientists don't honor it. Neither of those things has ANYTHING to do with actually landing on the property and defending it. We are talking about actual tangible resources, not symbolic toy deeds to give to kids at Christmas.

[AngelLestat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

"The Principality of Sealand is an unrecognised self-declared state"

Help me up a little bit with my english here.. what "unrecognised self-declared state" means?

[vger]

Unrecognized (insert item here) is the basis of every war in history.

[MinimumSky5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

"The Principality of Sealand is an unrecognised self-declared state"

Help me up a little bit with my english here.. what "unrecognised self-declared state" means?

A group of people planted a flag and said "This land is now ours!", but everyone ignored them and no one regards it as being a valid state (although I don't know the logic behind not granting statehood in that case).

[AngelLestat]

I will said it again:

You are all thinking like we were in times before the world war II, or even before.. I will said your way of thinking is from 1500.

The time of own new undeclared lands is over, also by the force.

Now the world is taking the path of globalization, public opinion has a lot of power now.. politics now try more harder to look like they care of what people think.

Now each people is related with many places of the world due its consumption, tastes, culture, friends, business and vacations. So is not more a group of islands fighting between them.. Each time is like a big family, you can have freinds and connections in any place.

If some country pollutes the planet it has an influence in you..

There is not efficiency in ownership anymore.. the most efficient lately is share.

Edited July 27, 2015 by AngelLestat

[tater]

Advances come from self interest, not sharing (except maybe where those unicorns and horses my daughter watches live, I think sharing works there).

[vger]

A group of people planted a flag and said "This land is now ours!", but everyone ignored them and no one regards it as being a valid state (although I don't know the logic behind not granting statehood in that case).

The U.K. threatened to blow it up, and destroyed all other "island forts" in the vicinity out of fear that other people might declare sovereignty on them. A British Navy vessel intent on "evicting" the owners, turned tail and ran when Sealand fired at them. Not exactly my definition of "ignoring."

The U.K. could very easily have chosen to never acknowledge the United States of America as a separate entity.

Edited July 27, 2015 by vger

[tater]

BTW, the UN "law" in question refers to nations, not private entities. If a private entity in my county wanted to own an asteroid I'd assume that was just fine. I'd tell the UN to come up and do something about it with their space navy, or they can pound sand.

Pissing off an entity with a big rock in orbit seems like a bad idea, too. Any company with such an asteroid already has more "teeth" than the UN.