Battlestar

[Logan.Darklighter]

Here's a little something I'm working on. You could say I was inspired by the return of Macey Dean.

First off - I'm not going to attempt something that emulates Battlestar Galactica or any other Battlestar from either original or NuBSG in terms of absolute looks. I'm going for something that WORKS similarly and has more or less the same form and layout. Hopefully it will look good on it's own merits, but make no mistake - it WILL be a Battlestar type of ship. Specifically There will be hanger bays in pods to port and starboard, a generally wedge shaped front end and a set of massive engines at the rear of the main body.

Also - though I do use mods, I'm going to do my best to get it into space legit. That means it's going up in several pieces and will be assembled in orbit.

So - here's what I've got so far. The hanger pod design, using B9's HX series of parts plus BD Armory and some bits from LLL.

The hanger pod design is not fully finished yet, but it's 95% there. What's left is to figure out where the docking ports for the sub-craft will go as well as placing extras such as supplemental lighting. I also fully intend to utilize KAS and KIS for some things, such as refueling and even limited repairs. I'm pretty happy with the overall result. Especially since I've managed to keep the part count down around 94 parts! Hopefully I'll be able to keep the fully assembled craft under 250!

You'll notice the placement of the dual (and giant!) docking clamps on one side.

The other side had a nice "armored rib" look to it that evokes but doesn't copy that of the armor (and launch ports) of the Galactica. If you look closely this is one of the best views to spot the armament - mostly facing outward. There are LLL Cannon Turrets and 8 BD Armory 50-Cal turrets spaced around the hull. 2 each are positioned above and below the hanger entrances to discourage other fighters or (hopefully) shoot down any incoming missiles from getting inside the hanger! There's a power plant producing frankly insane amounts of power. But the ones in these hanger pods are really just auxiliary back-up units.

Aside from the asymmetry to port and starboard, all the details of the hanger pod design are mirrored so that I only had to create ONE design and not do major work flipping all the hull elements for two separate hangers! All I have to do is get two of the same type into orbit safely and then the main ship can dock with them and it doesn't matter which side goes where because both work on either.

These hangers don't have any engines themselves, but they do have a LOT of fuel and will be able to feed boosters which will be clamped to them for delivery to orbit. And they are perfectly balanced so there shouldn't be any oddities with weight distribution causing RUD events during the launch phase.

This was the easy part, though, I suspect. And I'm wondering if the main body of the ship will go up in one piece or need to be split up. In any case, once I get the overall design nailed down, I'll check it in the SPH/VAB for thrust balance overall before sending the separate parts up.

Incidentally, I've got my own take on a Viper Mk II, and two of these will fit side by side in that hanger above! I'm hoping to be able to fit at least 4 of them per hanger.

One last thing - any suggestions on a name since I'm NOT claiming this as a reproduction of Battlestar Galactica?

[gGATORr]

Wow dude, great work so far! As a huge BSG fan, I'm always excited when someone undertakes a project like this. The hangar pod looks sweet! Although... it would be ridiculously awesome if you could have the vipers launch out of tubes in the side of the ship like they do in the show. That would take some serious KSP engineering, but it seems like you're already taking a well-thought out and 'realistic' course, so why not?

[Red- the Engineer]

Battlestar Argus?

Named after the thousand-eyed guardian, of course. Fitting for a carrier.

[Logan.Darklighter]

h... it would be ridiculously awesome if you could have the vipers launch out of tubes in the side of the ship like they do in the show. That would take some serious KSP engineering...

LOL! No kidding! Basically - take that entire hanger you see above, right? Chop the width in half and keep the existing length front to rear - and that'd be a SINGLE LAUNCH TUBE if I did that to scale!

Make no mistake - I'd love to try it if it were anywhere near the realm of sanity to consider it. But I can already hear the faint mechanical moans of agony as my computer and graphics card cringe at the thought of rendering even the limited concept above, much less a true Battlestar at the proper scale! LOL!

I don't know if KSP can even handle such a thing at all! Some sources put the length of the average Battlestar from the canon (either original or NuBSG) at anywhere from 1 to 2 kilometers! You'd be running into a situation where - as you approach the ship - part of it would show up but the rest would still be beyond the 2.5 km render distance of the stock game! Oi...!

Mind you - I'm running BD Armory, so my render distance is around 10 KM. But even so, I'm SERIOUSLY pushing the limits of what's even possible!

Maybe someday when KSP finally graduates beyond the 32 bit limit and all. Or if Ubiosur welding ever gets updated to 1.04+ standards...

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BTW - I've tested the gun emplacements and firing arcs in static ground tests. Just the hanger pod at the end of the runway on launch brackets, firing the guns at various targets such as the destructible buildings and some "target drones" set up around the area. And just the hanger pod guns ALONE put out an absolutely WITHERING amount of fire! And that's just with the "defense" 50 cal and relatively fast firing smaller LLL cannon mounts. Can't wait to see what the main body of the ship does with it's capital ship level guns and missiles!

Yes - we will have MOAR DAKKA!!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Battlestar Argus?

I like that name! I'll definitely keep that one in mind as a possibility. Thanks!

[Logan.Darklighter]

Here's an update on my progress.

This is the middle block - or as I refer to it - the Battlestar's Spine. This is what everything else attaches to. The basic structure is complete, now I just have to add some power generation, RCS modules, weaponry and ammo. Also I'll need to design a temporary command module for getting it into orbit.

Just in case it isn't apparent just how enormous this is going to be, remember that those Kerbal workmen on the floor of the SPH are TO SCALE!

I've got the basic structure on the forward section of the Battlestar done as well. Still messing about with making sure the parts will fit without getting in the way of each other for a clear docking.

[Logan.Darklighter]

Here's what I've got so far on the front section. I think it's going to look suitably mean when I get all the details and armaments onto it.

EDIT: Here's the two sections mated together in the hanger. I'm beginning to have trouble fitting things into frame!!

I'm very much considering getting one of the hanger extension mods so I can put it all together to check thrust and center of gravity before I launch anything.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Logan.Darklighter

[Gaalidas]

The first part with the hangar, if that was made into a complete craft alone, was giving me flashbacks from Wing Commander 3/4. It's about time someone other than the B9 devs made something huge out of those HX parts. I tried to make a giant space station out of them, but I still have yet to get it to launch without lagging up and crashing my poor laptop.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Gaalidas

[The Error]

O_o dayum.

Just a thought on the gunnery side; if you're using BDA, you could add a few of the howitzers to the bow, á la Pegasus.

And a thought @ name, perhaps the Battlestar Maelstrom?

Edited August 8, 2015 by The Error

[Logan.Darklighter]

The first part with the hangar, if that was made into a complete craft alone...

Honestly? I was thinking about that and it would be very do-able. You could balance it better port and starboard. I'm near certain you'd have to lose the "fly through" hanger aspect to have room for the thrusters, but maybe not?

In any case, it'd actually be a pretty good thing to put together as a less part-heavy alternative to a full Battlestar.

*LIGHTBULB*

You know what? Since I was going to maneuver and dock the separate pieces (with RCS thrusters and disposable boosters) ANYWAY, I could make a version that could fly on it's own. I could even make a version that could dock on either port and starboard (but not angled, like the battlestar one) so that two or more of them could link up or link side to side to a slightly larger ship LIKE a battlestar...

HOLY CRAP... you know what I just realized?

I've by accident re-created the ARMD platform concept from freaking MACROSS!

- - - Updated - - -

O_o dayum.

Just a thought on the gunnery side; if you're using BDA, you could add a few of the howitzers to the bow, á la Pegasus.

The "shark jaw" look of the bow is inspired by elements of both Galactica and Pegasus. And I was VERY much thinking of adding howitzers into the space between the "teeth". Give it some real "bite" you know? (Har har... )

It's also one place where I figure to add a battery of Missile Launchers.

And a thought @ name, perhaps the Battlestar Maelstrom?

Another good name! Added to the list, and thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

BTW - a question for veteran users of BDA:

I seem to recall that adding more Weapon Managers allows for more targets to be engaged individually by different weapons. Am I remembering this right or is that a Myth to be "Busted"?

(I'd love it to be true, because if it is, a Battlestar or even an ARMD style carrier could protect itself against multiple attackers at the same time with different banks of weaponry!)

[Logan.Darklighter]

I can already tell that I'll be able to easily fit in the Vipers. I'm almost certain I can fit two side-by-side in this space. If there's some wingtip scraping, I can always stagger the docking ports slightly (this design of Viper has a standard docking port on the ventral side) or even dock them to the ceiling in places. It hardly matters since it's space and 0-G.

[The Error]

@weapon managers yes. Each WM can go into Guard Mode seperately, and each can control a different weapon type; one for point defense, one for main guns, one for missiles, for example.

A bit awkward to set up, perhaps, but it lets the weapons all find and engage targets seperately.

Unfortunately, it's an all-or-nothing type deal. A manager set up for, say, .50 cal turrets will control every .50 cal turret mpunted on the ship. There's no way to designate certain banks of guns to certain managers.

Edited August 9, 2015 by The Error

[Logan.Darklighter]

@weapon managers yes. Each WM can go into Guard Mode seperately, and each can control a different weapon type; one for point defense, one for main guns, one for missiles, for example.

A bit awkward to set up, perhaps, but it lets the weapons all find and engage targets seperately.

Unfortunately, it's an all-or-nothing type deal. A manager set up for, say, .50 cal turrets will control every .50 cal turret mpunted on the ship. There's no way to designate certain banks of guns to certain managers.

That's still good news! Just have to make sure I've got a variety of weapons to use.

As to the discussion earlier about making the hanger pod into it's own ship, here's something I whipped up relatively quickly. And I even retained the fly-through hanger!

It still needs a bit of work before I launch it. I suspect I'll need to do some strutting just to make sure I don't get wobbly parts. But once I get that done, I'm tempted to just turn the thing on it's end and see if it'll blast off on its own power from the runway. I expect I'll have to repair the runway after that lift-off even if it does work.

I foresee many glorious explosions in my immediate future.

[Guest Space Cowboy]

Looking good. REAAAAAL GOOD.

[Logan.Darklighter]

I think you'll like this.

I put together a small album of screens I took during a weapons test of the Spine.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[Azimech]

Nice!

I'm currently building a stock launch tube as a joke and a sort of challenge. Complete with the lighting. I made a B9 Battlestar in 0.90 but due to some bugs back then, it would just blow up bigtime.

If you like, i can post an album.

[Logan.Darklighter]

Nice!

I'm currently building a stock launch tube as a joke and a sort of challenge. Complete with the lighting. I made a B9 Battlestar in 0.90 but due to some bugs back then, it would just blow up bigtime.

If you like, i can post an album.

That'd be awesome! I'd love to see your take on the design. Might give me some ideas.

[Azimech]

Okay, here it is.

I might finish it some day, the B9 bugs are probably gone now.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[Logan.Darklighter]

That right there is VERY interesting. Are all those interior space shots inside the hanger blocks or inside the main body?

I see that the limitations of .90 limited the way you could place the various large sections. (I don't think we had the re-positioning and fine rotation tools back then, did we? I kinda skipped .90 and up through 1.03 and kept playing my .25 saves. Didn't really start with the up-to-date game again until 1.04)

I've learned some interesting things the last couple of days in regards to size tweaking and sliding parts around. It makes balancing things a lot more do-able in terms of tweaking the center of gravity and thrust. Plus it can make things look closer to what you really intend.

For example - I realized that unless I got a hanger extend mod or went with extra-planetary ship-building (which I may still do) that it's difficult to impossible to balance test the entire full sized ship.

And by extension, that meant that despite getting the shapes of the middle block, the hangers, the nose, and the engines right, I couldn't test the whole thing. And THAT meant I was getting WAY ahead of myself in terms of design. I could be going down a path that led to a design dead-end, get frustrated, and give up prematurely.

So I decided to ramp things back a bit. And go with something smaller, less accurate to scale and form, but easier to manage in terms of learning how to balance the COG and thrust factors of a form like a Battlestar.

Behold - the pocket Battlestar test article!

It's almost cute isn't it? Heh.

The hangers are just there for looks and balance, not really meant to be anything full-scale to hold things (though they could handle some smaller designs). My Viper II design would just BARELY... not fit. The wings would scrape. So they're just there as place holders.

The main point here was to LEARN. Learn how to balance the COG and thrust lines. A Battlestar - with the way it's engines sit high - does not appear to thrust through the center of gravity. This is less of an issue with the Nu BSG designs, as they appear more balanced. So they are where I'm drawing the majority of my inspiration from.

Also the intent was to learn more about pulling the various blocks around on a fully realized B9 HX ship, as well as size-tweaking of parts and such, etc, etc.

You may notice in the above version that I did what you did, Azimech. I wound up with a vertically aligned engine block. This... turned out to have issues. As I will get to momentarily.

Anyway - I managed to keep the part count relatively low on this design. RELATIVELY, I say. For any ship this size made out of normal parts, I'm sure it would be around 5-600 parts. But that's the great thing about the B9 HX blocks. You can build things at a huge scale with lower part counts. This design overall varied between 230 and 280 parts as I did various tweaks. But it never went over 300.

And a lot of the part count was actually struts! I think I might've been over-doing it on the struts actually. I could probably afford to cut back by almost 50% on the amount of struts I was using. But I wanted something that would hold together under some rough treatment.

Such as this - I fully intended to use a gravity hack to get the thing into the air long enough to get up some speed on the main engines. But I forgot a main lesson that sometimes even afflicts Scott Manley - to hilarious results! CHECK YO STAGING!!!!

At least it's a TOUGH little big ship! It survived falling and destroying the runway and only lost one engine and some RCS blocks!

Anyway - I did the gravity hack to get off the runway and then discovered the problems with the engine layout. I THOUGHT I'd balanced it properly in the SPH, or at least came close. But close isn't good enough. Particularly with something this size that takes so long to turn. It has to be RIGHT on the perfect line. Or you'll be left with a set of engines you can barely use!

I was frantically messing around with the thrust limiters on the top row of engines ramping them up and down trying to balance the control. After a while I realized I wasn't really getting anywhere with this design version and reverted back to the hanger - but on the positive side I'd learned a few more things!

1) With something this large and with a shape like this you've got to be PERFECT in your thrust/COG balance from the start.

2) Something this big needs a LOT of control authority. I hadn't given it enough reaction wheels. I ran out of RCS very early on and had to hack infinite RCS fuel.

3) Related - more RCS Fuel tankage.

ALSO - a weird bug kept dogging me. Random launch clamps spawning and sometimes following me through the sky! Not sure if this is a problem with the B9 HX parts or just an artifact of trying to launch something this big and the game going wonky.

So - back to the hanger, for the next version of the Pocket Battlestar.

This time I did a lot more with tweakscale. Plus using the off-center and rotation controls to refine the design. And this was the latest result:

Immediately you'll notice that the engine block design is a LOT closer to the show. I downscaled the engines and many of the connecting parts so that I could get the double-4 engine rows. Also much of the ship up to the midline has various bits tweaked and moved around if you look closely. More fuel and RCS tanks etc.

Also - to sidestep the clamp bug I decided to dispense with the launch clamps and use the large B9 Landing Gear.

This time I managed to get the thrust line perfectly balanced through the center of gravity. And the COG itself right through the main connecting block (the root part) in the center of the ship. I had placed a VTOL thruster right under it - though I knew it would never lift without a gravity hack. That was okay - again, all I wanted to do was hack gravity long enough to stand the thing on it's tail and use the main thrusters without having to go to the trouble of designing a set of disposable launch boosters.

Also - note that each of the 8 main thruster blocks also has an associated pair of reaction wheels. There's also a LOT of RCS blocks back there. More control authority! (Also - the middle 2 top engines are thrust limited to 50% - which was the final tweak that finally got the thrust line perfectly lined up with the COG)

So - I spawned the thing onto the runway, and actually managed NOT to break it! At least until I fired the VTOL thruster... What follows next isn't actually all that consequential to the process, but it was too cool to NOT share!

Now THAT'S lifting off WITH STYLE!!! Like a Phoenix rising from the ashes!

Anyway - as stated, I hacked gravity only long enough to stand the Pocket Battlestar on it's tail and then let loose with full throttle on the main engines.

Go baby GO!!!

Eventually I did have to hack infinite fuel and RCS again. But not because I didn't have enough! It was the balance problem showing up again. With the fuel at a lower level, the COG had shifted and I needed to leave the fuel where it was for balance. I'll have to go back again to the hanger and remove all the fuel and try to balance it again between fully fueled and not.

ALSO - a design like this is almost going to REQUIRE TAC fuel balancer. And maybe the dynamic balanced thrust mod too. I have the former. I used to have the latter on my .25 save. Need to add it again. It might help in automatically balancing the engine thrust properly.

I was using MecJeb's automated liftoff control, but then I noticed that I wasn't gaining altitude anymore. In fact I was starting to fall in front of the apoapsis and start on a slow downslope sub-orbital trajectory. But continuing to gain speed. So I decided - to hell with it - lets just see if we can gain enough speed - and if the ship can hold together through the heat while it does it.

And... DAMN if it isn't impressive watching something on the scale of this ship getting up to Mach 6-7 at about 35-30,000 meters... and HOLDING TOGETHER. (I was listening to the BSG soundtrack and you better DAMN well believe I had "Storming New Caprica" on during this part!

All I needed was an FTL drive to leap out of the atmosphere direct with!

Eventually I took over manual control and angled the nose up to gain altitude and get on the right side of the apoapsis curve.

At this point I had all hacks turned back off, and circularized with the engines in plasma mode. MUCH more fuel efficient. And WHOA what a light show!

And here we are in stable orbit.

Which I immediately reverted back to the hanger to after taking the screens. This was after all, just a theoretical test after all.

So - what I learned, in summary:

1) Thrust line through the center of gravity IS in fact possible to do with a shape like the Galactica. But you have to be PERFECT with it. Something that big does not react quickly, even at the smaller scale of the Pocket Battlestar test vehicle. The real thing will be a BEAST to turn, even in space. So the balance better be as perfect as it can get in both fueled and near empty fuel tankage set ups.

2) Control authority, Control Authority, CONTROL AUTHORITY!!! LOTS of reaction wheels everywhere they can be fit in! RCS can only do so much!

3) Struts are important, but you can go too far with them. Especially for something that's ONLY supposed to maneuver in orbit. I can afford to cut back to bare minimum and reduce part count on the final design I think.

3) I've GOT to find some way to build/view the entire package assembled. I'll have to install hanger extender if it will work. But now I know it IS possible to get the shape and the balance right.

4) Tweakscale will be a must-have. It was essential even on the "small" test article in getting the thrust balance close to right. (And I still messed up because I didn't do a balance pass with empty fuel tanks. I'll correct that on my next design pass.)

4) I want the various pieces to be launch-able for people who don't have extra-planetary launch pads or hanger extender mods. But it's going to be DAMN difficult getting even the individual sections off the ground if my experiences here are any indication. I DON'T like hacking/cheats except for specific purposes such as testing specific things like the above. I don't want to force it on other people either. I will do my best to get launch packages set up for lofting the sections into orbit. But no guarantees. I'll make sure this thing can fly when assembled in orbit. But I'm still not sure how that's going to work.

I may add further thoughts later. But that's all I can think of for now.

Oh - one last thing - Nertea's Mk 4 Spaceplane cockpit makes a great combined "Bridge/CIC" if you clip it into the nose at the right angle. Can you see the windows just barely peaking through in the shots above? Heh.

[Azimech]

NICE!

That's a lot to read but that's my first thought.

Yeah, horizontal engine layout is much better, the MK4 cockpit is a nice blend, later more :-)

Edit: Funny to see how skills develop. My Battlestar was one of the first things I did when 0.90 arrived. After that I did this stock one:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

And was still learning the use of the new gizmo's. For the launch bays I pioneered the "connected open cargo bay style" and immediately sought to use it for different things, and the Battlestar thing remained in stasis ever since. Today I would build a totally different one.

But I really want to build a full size 1978 one, 1.2 km long. Indeed when a stable 64-bit version arrives.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Azimech

[The Error]

Lookin' good, Logan!

And yeah, because the hangar pods sit lower than the center of mass, you need to tweak thrust limiters... or just shift the engines around. Had the same issue designing a Skyranger lookalike.

Query... think you can include the spinal VLS tubes? You are using BDA, after all.

[Logan.Darklighter]

Query... think you can include the spinal VLS tubes? You are using BDA, after all.

Missiles, eh? Let me ponder that. Obviously I'd have to use the space maneuvering missiles. Might need a slight re-design of the existing frame. There's currently nowhere to put them. At least not on what I've got so far. I have to consider the balance and all. Maybe it's something I can add to the front or rear sections. I could maybe see using a hollow LLL box mounted vertically right ahead of the docking ring of the forward section. One of the new parts LLL has is a hull section with a ramp that opens. I could maybe use that and open it when it's time to launch the missiles. I'd have to move some stuff around. I'm sure something can be managed. Nothing is set in stone yet.

If all else fails, I can just mount some missiles on rails on the outside of the hull somewhere. I was considering doing just that mounted in the "mouth" of the front end section along with some howitzer cannons.

[Yukon0009]

Wow.. how many parts?

[Logan.Darklighter]

Wow.. how many parts?

Not as many as you might think. The test "Pocket Battlestar" came in at 248 parts. I think that's likely going to be the overall average of the 5 separate modules of the full size Battlestar, though I really want to cut that down to about 150-200 average if possible. That would make the full-size version about 750-1000 parts when it's all assembled in orbit. Which is - amazingly enough - not NEARLY as bad as it sounds! Considering that if it works correctly, this will be about a quarter-scale of the "real" Battlestar Galactica!

[Red- the Engineer]

Not as many as you might think. The test "Pocket Battlestar" came in at 248 parts. I think that's likely going to be the overall average of the 5 separate modules of the full size Battlestar, though I really want to cut that down to about 150-200 average if possible. That would make the full-size version about 750-1000 parts when it's all assembled in orbit. Which is - amazingly enough - not NEARLY as bad as it sounds! Considering that if it works correctly, this will be about a quarter-scale of the "real" Battlestar Galactica!

Now we just need someone to make a 1:1 replica.

[Logan.Darklighter]

Bit of an update on the WIP.

I downloaded the new BD Armory and in the process broke a LOT of my ship designs, including the parts of the battlestar I had already put together. Actually that's my own fault for not completely stripping the old BD Armory folder out and trusting CKAN to update it properly. USUALLY it does! But not this time for some reason.

So I'm having to go back and redo a lot of work. But frankly that's okay, because it gives me the chance to re-think a few things along the way. Particularly things based on what I learned with the Pocket Battlestar test article.

But one thing I know for sure. I'm going to be making unarmed versions of each module in the future so I don't have to completely redo the work I've accomplished if an update changes things too much. I may also consider stock options (other than the B9 HX parts) for as many things as possible.

Something else I did some research on. I was designing the latest version of the Viper. I know that the Vipers in NuBSG can carry missiles, so I added some BD Armory space maneuvering missiles to the design. Then it occurred to me - how do you resupply/reload these things back in the hanger? (It's the one area where I figured the old stock/homebuilt missiles had an advantage over a mod like BD Armory)

I was looking into the possibility of making swappable racks that used small docking ports to attach them, but that was making the part count go up and weight as well. Then I discovered something about the new Kerbal Inventory system (KIS) - you can actually store MISSILES in those boxes! And the Kerbals themselves can place them properly on the launch rails for attachment! So that's one logistical problem solved. And another thing I must consider adding to the hanger design.

But for now I've got to go back and do a re-build on some Battlestar modules.