Mission to Uranus and Neptune!

[Frida Space]

If you want to know what else there is, look at this years Discovery proposals and the New Frontiers candidates, given that's the point of them.

No need to be aggressive. I know very well the Discovery proposals, and everyone is allowed to have his own preferences. I personally would prefer a mission to Uranus and/or Neptune over most of the Discovery proposals. I find the ice giants much more fascinating than the Martian moons, more asteroids, Venus or comets (Discovery proposed destinations). The only proposals I'm really into are the ones to Io and Enceladus; in fact, I know ELF's PI very well. If you prefer to explore our own Moon or Phobos or Deimos or whatever instead of Uranus and Neptune, no problem. Everyone is allowed to have his own opinions, without having to say "inform yourself" if someone disagrees with you

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They take long time to arrive, they need some extra deltav, the energy that reach those planets is very low which reduce its activity, by activity I mean things that might caught our attention.

With Plutonium production restarting, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, the SLS could cut flight times. But yes, obviously it would be harder than, say, going back to Venus. The question is: is exploring the ice giants worth it? Obviously everyone is entitled to have their own opinions.

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The Decadal Survey prioritised Mars, Europa and Uranus for Flagship-class missions, but it repeatedly recommended downscoping or delaying those missions if they could not be done without affecting the smaller missions.

That's very true, but I don't think a Flasghip mission every decade (Mars 2020 in the 2010-2020 decade, Europa in the 2020-2030 decade, and U-N in the 2030-2040 decade) should be too much of a problem. But I could be wrong.

EDIT: After all, we are talking of a Flaship mission in the 2030s-40s. Serious funding probably won't start for the next 15 years.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Frida Space

[LordFerret]

I'd like to be excited about such missions, but my excitement gets squashed over the fact I'll not be here by the time those probes arrive let alone send back pictures and data.

[PakledHostage]

The Decadal Survey prioritised Mars, Europa and Uranus for Flagship-class missions, but it repeatedly recommended downscoping or delaying those missions if they could not be done without affecting the smaller missions.

In a perfect world, all of those missions, big and small, would get funded. The world community has the resources and the money gets spent down here, after all. It isn't shovelled into a rocket and fired off into deep space. As a statement of fact, not politics, my own country's government currently muzzles government funded scientists from speaking about their research so I am not holding my breath waiting for them to increase funding for scientific endeavors, but the voters in any democracy have a voice. If enough of them speak up, policies can change. Either when a new government takes power or if the sitting government starts to listen.

Edited August 26, 2015 by PakledHostage

[_Augustus_]

I'd like to be excited about such missions, but my excitement gets squashed over the fact I'll not be here by the time those probes arrive let alone send back pictures and data.

Agreed. It's no fun for anyone over 40 or so to think about humans landing on Mars because they'll probably be gone by the time it happens..

[AngelLestat]

With Plutonium production restarting, that shouldn't be a problem. Also, the SLS could cut flight times. But yes, obviously it would be harder than, say, going back to Venus. The question is: is exploring the ice giants worth it? Obviously everyone is entitled to have their own opinions.

What I wanted to say was that these planets receive less energy from the sun, less energy means less planet activity, so it reduce the chances to find something important.

[Frida Space]

What I wanted to say was that these planets receive less energy from the sun, less energy means less planet activity, so it reduce the chances to find something important.

Oh, my bad then! So yeah, that's true. But as New Horizons taught us, we can be surprised...

[NFUN]

What I wanted to say was that these planets receive less energy from the sun, less energy means less planet activity, so it reduce the chances to find something important.

Jupiter radiates away more energy than it receives from the Sun, as does Saturn. A lot of planetary activity exists independently from solar radiation. There's a lot of interesting things happening at Uranus and Neptune, and even studying their composition and moons would be desirable.

[AngelLestat]

But if you need to choose one (because it always comes down to that), what you will choose?

[NFUN]

But if you need to choose one (because it always comes down to that), what you will choose?

Choose one of what?

[AngelLestat]

one mission of course.. the budget is not unlimited. You get only huge budgets if you give the people what most want. (manned mission)

Or the true possibility to find life "europe submarine" or maybe with lower chance by also much lower budget Titan atmosphere and lakes.

I am not saying that having quality pictures of uranus and neptune is not a great thing, I would love it.. but if I need to choose.. I choose the other possibilities.

Enoght to orbit planets and take pictures.. lets go in there.

[Kryten]

You'll see a man walk on Mars before you see a Europa submarine.

[AngelLestat]

You'll see a man walk on Mars before you see a Europa submarine.

if you see my post in the page 3, that is why I put europa submarine last, and venus/mars manned mission first.

[mellojoe]

I am not saying that having quality pictures of uranus and neptune is not a great thing, I would love it.. but if I need to choose.. I choose the other possibilities.

Enoght to orbit planets and take pictures.. lets go in there.

Well, pictures are just one aspect. Every recent mission has had multiple sensors and science equipment, testing gravity fluctuations, chemistry of atmosphere, radiation levels, etc. The pictures are released to help the hype, marketing, and inspiration for future scientists, future projects, and future funding. There is tons more data that comes in that can seem "boring" to the layman. Most people aren't going to care what the gravity map of Vesta is, but it is important data that we need. For a specific example, look at how New Horizons revealed the odd nature of Pluto's nitrogen atmosphere. That is the kind of information that is necessary and interesting to the science community, but which gets lost amid the dramatized news stories. But, a really cool picture of Pluto with a big heart? That's something that the general public will share, and potentially inspire a younger mind to look up in wonder.

Pictures are also good for 3-D visual studies of craters and land features. The Dawn probe is taking (I think) pictures of Ceres' surface at six different angles in order to put composite topology together, which again can yield insight into its geologic activity. Then we add the rest of the testing equipment to get a full understanding.

Cameras are just one piece of the puzzle. We send lots of science gathering equipment into space.

[AngelLestat]

Well, pictures are just one aspect. Every recent mission has had multiple sensors and science equipment, testing gravity fluctuations, chemistry of atmosphere, radiation levels, etc. The pictures are released to help the hype, marketing, and inspiration for future scientists, future projects, and future funding. There is tons more data that comes in that can seem "boring" to the layman. Most people aren't going to care what the gravity map of Vesta is, but it is important data that we need.

You think I dont know all that? But at the end of the day.. if you need to compare.. a titan mission to the atmosphere and methane lakes sounds better. With higher chances to find something important.

Or a floating ballon with dynamic bouyancy in jupiter, measuring all gases, magnetic fields, lower layers, with great pictures of its atmosphere.. Which worth and inspire much more than a high resolution uranus picture. And the mission will happen earlier because is much closer.

For a specific example, look at how New Horizons revealed the odd nature of Pluto's nitrogen atmosphere. That is the kind of information that is necessary and interesting to the science community, but which gets lost amid the dramatized news stories. But, a really cool picture of Pluto with a big heart? That's something that the general public will share, and potentially inspire a younger mind to look up in wonder.

If you call something as 0.00001 bar an atmosphere, then we can call "planets" to a lot of asteroids, but not by that they will be equally interesting than an actual atmosphere/planet.

Pluto had his month of attention, but a big majority of the world population never heard of the mission or they dint care.

About inspiring younger minds.. that is a job for a manned mission, there is nothing compare to that.

Pictures are also good for 3-D visual studies of craters and land features. The Dawn probe is taking (I think) pictures of Ceres' surface at six different angles in order to put composite topology together, which again can yield insight into its geologic activity. Then we add the rest of the testing equipment to get a full understanding.

Cameras are just one piece of the puzzle. We send lots of science gathering equipment into space.

But you all are always dodging the main point.. as I said.. yeah, a uranus and neptune mission are important and I will love to see it.. But if we need to choose, one or the other.. what you will choose?

What mission has the most value in science, public media, can be completed in a average short term and with more chances to realize a big discovery?

Technology always increase, we would develope new techniques to achieve high deltaV, so we should left long distance missions to later.

[Rune]

I won't. A second mission to a similar destination isn't worth eating up a few Discovery or New Frontiers missions that would do new kinds of science at new targets; that's why not many people outside of Congress wanted Stern's New Horizons 2.

I would have replied, but someone did it for me:

This will be a Flasghip mission, it won't affect the Discovery and New Frontiers programs. If NASA sees it doesn't have enough money for two orbiters, then it will go for just one. Plus, calling Neptune and Uranus similar is like calling Jupiter and Saturn similar.

Especially the part about calling Neptune and Uranus similar. Even not counting the whole Triton thing (there is no other moon system like that!), there would be the 90º inclined axis. And you know, science thrives with samples of more than one, when it comes to create models.

Obviously I didn't mean for them to be simultaneous (though building two probes in parallel would surely cut on the R&D). And note that the general feeling of the phrase was that that would be in an ideal world, where budgets actually go up in a reasonable way. I surely don't expect it...

Rune. May get a "two flagships for 3 billion" deal?

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If you want to know what else there is, look at this years Discovery proposals and the New Frontiers candidates, given that's the point of them. There's also MSR, which this would be in direct competition with and is what Mars scientist have been asking for for the past 40 years.

The Decadal Survey prioritised Mars, Europa and Uranus for Flagship-class missions, but it repeatedly recommended downscoping or delaying those missions if they could not be done without affecting the smaller missions.

EDIT: In fact, the Survey gave a priority list for things that should be added if they managed to get funding beyond that needed for the ice giant mission;

another flagship is the lowest priority, and even then it's one to a different class of target.

IIRC, this is kind of flagship mission would go just after MSR, in the thirties, when the new plutonium form DOE will be coming in at a steady pace. So they would not conflict in budget. If stuff happens like the politicians say it will.

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one mission of course.. the budget is not unlimited. You get only huge budgets if you give the people what most want. (manned mission)

Or the true possibility to find life "europe submarine" or maybe with lower chance by also much lower budget Titan atmosphere and lakes.

I am not saying that having quality pictures of uranus and neptune is not a great thing, I would love it.. but if I need to choose.. I choose the other possibilities.

Enoght to orbit planets and take pictures.. lets go in there.

That "manned vs unmanned" dichotomy is false. The budget lines are completely separate, and in fact different NASA centers take care of each thing. They may pilfer some money from each other, but it's usually the equivalent of small change: no matter what happens, both accounts will keep on existing and maintaining (more or less) their relative weights.

In fact, having two large flagship missions flying (say, launched five years apart) would mean great things for manned spaceflight, considering it would be an indicative of a fairly well-funded NASA.

Rune. Here's hoping.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Rune

[DMSP]

Why don't they swing around Jupiter?

They could get a sizable boost and both probes might be able to get there...

[_Augustus_]

Why don't they swing around Jupiter?

They could get a sizable boost and both probes might be able to get there...

Yeah. If NASA gets more money after 2018 I think they will do both these probes.

[Belphegor]

regarding the subject i spot a suprisingly low amount of puns in this thread..

anyways.. i hope they go through with these plans! i'm looking forward to discovering the secrets of uranus

[_Augustus_]

regarding the subject i spot a suprisingly low amount of puns in this thread..

anyways.. i hope they go through with these plans! i'm looking forward to discovering the secrets of uranus

Urs too!

[Whirligig Girl]

They can't call it a space probe program or else... you know...

Sending a deep space probe to Uranus and Neptune will be hard, because if they want to slow down using anything but aerobraking they're gonna need a heckuvalotta delta-V. They need more than SLS. They need...

That.

Edited August 27, 2015 by GregroxMun

[Frida Space]

From a NASA Uranus study:

Several aspects of Uranus are unique in the solar system:

1. Its low rate of internal heat emission (per unit mass, Uranus’s heat flow is ~10 times lower than that of Neptune) suggests that much of the interior may not be convective and has correspondingly higher temperatures (Guillot 2005)

2. Its large obliquity (98°) applies an unusual seasonal forcing to the atmosphere. The insolation differences between summer and winter are very large, but the annual averaged insolation as a function of latitude is more uniform than on any other giant planet, although on average the poles do receive more sunlight than the equator (Figure 1-2).

3. It has a strongly tilted (~60° from its rotation axis) dipole magnetic field, which, near solstice, leads to a unique geometry that offers an ideal opportunity to study the coupling between the solar wind and planetary atmospheres.

4. Its magnetic field also appears to be generated well outside the planet’s core, as much as 70% of the way out from the planet’s center. (offset magnetic field)

Uranus's satellite and rings systems are also unique. Uranus lacks the large satellites found around Jupiter and Saturn, and the much lower temperatures allow for different surface ices. Given the different formation and evolutionary paths of ice-giant as opposed to gas-giant systems, the Uranian satellites will shed light on the formation and conditions of the early solar system. The largest Uranian satellites, Titania and Oberon, may have deep interior oceans (Hussmann et al. 2006), so measurements to detect induced magnetic fields of the satellites are desired. Uranus is particularly suited to this type of investigation because its inclined dipole (~60°) induces large field variations in the satellites as the planet rotates.

Despite Uranus's distance from the Sun and the satellites’ small sizes, there is evidence for significant tectonic activity, especially on small Ariel and smaller Miranda. In the case of Ariel, there is also evidence for viscous cryovolcanic flows, which have not been detected elsewhere in the solar system. Some of the smaller Uranian satellites are also dynamically interacting and perhaps unstable, with orbital changes seen between the 1980s and today.

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Also in that paper, they analyzed possible trajectories. The last Jupiter gravity assist opportunity of the decade is in 2021, so they had to come up with other trajectories. However, as Jim Green said the mission(s) could launch even at the beginning of the 2030s, a Jupiter gravity assist could be possible for that decade.

The trajectory they came up with involves a single Earth flyby:

The Uranus Orbital Insertion (UOI) is done by aerobraking, slowing from 22 km/s at entry interface (~500 km altitude) to Mach 1 at about 60 km altitude (0.1 bar pressure) in about 1 minute.

[Belphegor]

i sense some funny headliners coming up in the newspapers

[Nibb31]

It would be really great if we could be mature enough to not have giggle fits each time we hear the name of the planet.

The stupid puns are probably the greatest obstacle for funding a mission to the ice giants at this point. It's ridiculous and it's childish.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Nibb31

[_Augustus_]

It would be really great if we could be mature enough to have giggle fits each time we hear the name of the planet.

The stupid puns are probably the greatest obstacle for funding a mission to the ice giants at this point. It's ridiculous and it's childish.

Agreed. A study actually proved that.

[fredinno]

Why don't they swing around Jupiter?

They could get a sizable boost and both probes might be able to get there...

With the problem that it would be much harder to slow down...

Areo-capture would be incredibly risky, and has never been done before IRL- areobraking to lower a higher orbit, however is a possibility, however. Unfortunately, ion drives will be impossible to power at that distance with current production levels of RTGs- meaning we will have to do it like Jeb does it.

Moar boosters.

Or in our case, an SLS launched probe to do a powered orbital insertion.

Edited August 28, 2015 by fredinno