Tools: Surface Plane and Welding(Not like the mod!)

[Arugela]

First an idea for a surface plane adjustor.

• Basically, like a red line that shows the angle of attack of the ground starting at zero. This could be a mode up top or down with the show COM,COT, and COL icons.
  
• The red line/plane is adjustable(length, width, etc.) and can be be shifted in degrees to atleast one degree of accuracy or more if desired. This plane/line can be moved up and down to make wheels stick to them. This will then move the wheels onto a perfect ange to it and line them up in all directions and on all planes. You can do things like pull the wheels off manually and unstick them by clicking and dragging off etc. Whatever is needed to change them how you wish.
  
• I would allow multiples of these lines potentially if doable and be able to click or indicate a wheel is invisible to a given line if possible just in case someone uses multiple wheel setups on one craft. Or maybe even a the abilityt to dictate it to wings or other objects to adjust and see the angles. Maybe if the line can have it's length adjusted not to hit everything or as much as needed to only adjust what you want. It could even be called a ruler or adjuster mode. If it a mode you could simply change teh mode or turn off it's modes to unatached while not moving then use one line to go over part by part. or do multiple and help align and design the ship how you want.
  

Second, a type of welding that cost money to strengthen the bonds of items near each other or already attached.

• If they are directly attached it will increase the strength of the attachment so they are stronger. This will cost money somehow. A nice alternative to the strut. It would also be useable in places struts couldn't be.
  
• If they are not attached but come close enough to each other you can weld them to a basic level of attachment for a fee. Allowing slighty more complex designs with greater stabiltity. There are lots of places this is useful now but the wobliness of many parts make it's impossible to use them and much of the time blow up the ship on the runway. This could help that! Once attached you can use the normal sliding tools and they will move together like one item. But in every other way they are seperate besides the value giving them some attachment. Then they are exposed to the rest of the game engine logic and act like independent parts in every other way according to whatever the current game logic uses hopefully. If used in conjenction with the mirror radius tool this could add multiple joints and act like real welding a little to increase the strength based on the number of welds done etc. Each one increasing the value of the bond between parts. Maybe select two parts that are close enough and then adjust the mirror/radial and number of joints and click like any normal item to place a spot weld or something else. maybe a special new option that does full welds around the items or other welding options for increased strength in various ways. One example being a full weld around both items. Or some sort of a double weld. The current being things like 8 spots around or 6 etc. Unless you used the 1/2/3/4/6/8 to represent these other welds.
  
• Examples: Mirror: 1 weld is single spot; 2 weld is symetrical spot welds. Each from source. They can use snap tool to help allign symentrically in greater number of single spots. Radial: 1 is a longer single weld on spot. A dash!; 2 is a symetrical dash folllowing the existing rules of radial; 3 increased to something else up to 8 for a full or double weld. Use exsiting logic in real welding and give them values and cost!
  
• Also, if you weld items stack on top of each other like two xenon tanks taking up the same space. When you select the first tank to weld it could become unselectible/invisible to the selection process. Applying this to each object selected could allow a second or even third object to be selected. and allow several items to be stacked making the already existing logic to stack the items more sane and doable! While not taking away from weight and other stats. Whole assemblies could be welded to increase strength and make planes much nicer to design as a whole! This would also give alot more versatility to exisinting parts without breaking their prexisting balance!
  
• To make welding different it could not be undoable in the normal sense in the vehicle bay and rocket building screen. You could make it so you can break the weld and remove it but you cannot get the money back! 8) This would make it something different in carreer modes over struts. Also welds would not have mass and would not add to the parts count or have any specific physics attributes as the parts themselves contain this. They only indicate the addition of join strength between existing parts and only creat what is needed to give that value between parts. Also removale of a weld could cost a small fee. Making it even more unique as an option.
  
• You could also allow engineers to do basic weldings in the feild somehow to fix things. Maybe a resource could be used to do this. not sure how. This could be particularly useful if welds can be broken by forces in flight etc. And give use to know how much to weld(IE smaller welds vs bigger welds vs cost!) It would give engineers or a good purpose to help maintain structural integrity of the vehicle in flight. Repairing welds could be very useful! Maybe the weld repairs are tallied for after a mission and taken from your cash!
  
• This would not replace struts. Struts can't currently get items too close together. Where welds would be most useful or usable period! Struts are most useful where parts are farther apart or where and angle exist. Usually where a weld would be impossible! i currently try to use strutsh were a weld would be the best option. But no such thing currently exists. This would save more headaches than I could count. This is very good for heavier space planes over rockets. Possibly good selectively on rockets also! I'm not familiar enough with rockets to say though. I imagine they could potentially be endlessly useful.
  
• Welds could also be usable where parts curcurmferance or edges touch allowing more unsual craft to be designed. My existing thought was where the circumfereances align. But that does not have to be the case. But then the game needs logic, if it doesn't already exist, to detech the edges of the items! Which might also solve a few other issues in the game currently! 8) Though that may be needed for unatached parts also unless you can detect proximity and do needed adjustments. I'm unaware what would be needed. The preslection of parts may make that easy to accomplish regardless....
  

I beleive these two changes would deal with 50% of the problems people have with building craft currently and take alot of headache out of needless building issues and give people more time to focus on the other more important aspects of the craft. specifically flying it and it's other design issues like TWR, fuel, aerodaynamics, etc.

Tools to find the current angle from 0 without moving stuff could be nice also. Especially for wing placements. Preferably on atleast the X,Y, and Z axis minimum.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Arugela

[nikokespprfan]

Second, a type of welding that cost money to strengthen the bonds of items near each other or already attached.

• If they are not attached but come close enough to each other you can weld them to a basic level of attachment for a fee. Allowing slighty more complex designs with greater stabiltity. There are lots of places this is useful now but the wobliness of many parts make it's impossible to use them and much of the time blow up the ship on the runway. This could help that! Once attached you can use the normal sliding tools and they will move together like one item. But in every other way they are seperate besides the value giving them some attachment. Then they are exposed to the rest of the game engine logic and act like independent parts in every other way according to whatever the current game logic uses hopefully. If used in conjenction with the mirror radius tool this could add multiple joints and act like real welding a little to increase the strength based on the number of welds done etc. Each one increasing the value of the bond between parts. Maybe select two parts that are close enough and then adjust the mirror/radial and number of joints and click like any normal item to place a spot weld or something else. maybe a special new option that does full welds around the items or other welding options for increased strength in various ways. One example being a full weld around both items. Or some sort of a double weld. The current being things like 8 spots around or 6 etc. Unless you used the 1/2/3/4/6/8 to represent these other welds.
  

Your Idea to let parts have multiple connections is an idea I really, really like. This could (UI-wise and IMO) simply be achieved by having an extra button along the lines of the place part,rotate part,offest part and redirect root part buttons.

EDIT: this would indeed solve a lot of frustrations

[Feradose]

I agree with every single sentence on this.

[Red Iron Crown]

I'm having trouble visualizing the first idea. Think you could gin up a rough image of how it would work?

[Arugela]

For the first one I was thinking a movable line or flat plane that could be adjusted as if it were the ground to line up to the ground how you want it. So it starts at 0 degrees, completely flat, and a bit below the aircraft. You can then click on it and drag it up so it hits the landing gear/wheels on the bottom of said craft touch the line/plane and they stick to the line/plane. Then they will auto adjust to perfect alignment to the plane on all axis. You then can move/adjust the plane while the items are stuck to adjust things where you want them. To use a different inclination you change the angle of the red line/plane and change the to say 15 degrees up and the gear/wheels will then adjust. It uses a sticky system to adjust all the gear. if it touches the bottom it stucks and moves with the adjusting plane. If it's designed to use touch to affect objects you could then also adjust it's parameters. Say it's length or width like changing a window on your computer from the edges and side etc and then use it. This would mean you could make it smaller to miss certain objects if needed or larger to get more. The other part of the idea was to set it's mode/item of affect. AKA change it to only affect items like wheel or gear seperately or wings or other items to adjust them to your desired angle. Kind of like a sticky measuring tape/tool that tells you the angle of the plane to 0 in the VAB etc. This could be a mode up top while the second idea(welding) could be a new button with the bottom buttons controlling mirror/radial and the amounts to use.

You could possibly make other planes via the left shift or alt key or some other existing shortcut to bring out more planes simulataneously. These could be put all over the plane while the mode is active to show and adjust angles of everything on the craft. If they are preserved it could be way to begin to keep tract of wing angles and whatnot also.

It would basically be a different angle adjusting mode. A planar mode!(Or even a drafting or CAD mode if you want to be oldschool about it. It would fit some of the games given eras!) Other things could be added to make it more useful to different tasks. Modeling it after other formal ways to design a craft could be nice too. And give enough ideas to completely design the craft as desired.

Is that any better?

If you meant a visual image in a pic I have no idea how....Well maybe I do. Hold on! 8)

The base idea for a plane/line is only the base idea. It could easily be expanded to other things. Like items or methods reflecting real plane design. Or old methods of drafting and design. Upgrades for it could even be unlockable items in the tech tree. Say drafting then Cad useage or something. Or whatever else is added. A new tech tree could be unlockable for design tools in game. Starting with formal drafting and a sliderule! ><

Images will be put here when I'm done:

Best I could figure out! 8p

This would obviously be mode as to not select and remove items as you would in the normal mode #1 giving it unique abilities and extra mouse button functions at it's disposal!

Again, something could be added to allow each plane to bet set to all items or limiited items like wheels or wings etc. Maybe even manually clicked/selected items or whatnot. Whatever gives it the use it needs to help the aircraft. But his is a pretty good pitcure of the base idea. It would not just move up and down but you could grab it like with a mouse and move it around along with letting it go and changing the parameters of the plane. When the plane is moved and it touches a wheel for wheel alignment. It would stick. it could be unstuck by either deselection(which would actually be a better idea possibly) and or clicking it and pulling it up. But that may be bad if you already got it where you want. You could also be able to select stuff and adjust the plane as a stationary object and assume it is stuck even when not toucthing and change them relatively! I would go with a combination of everything to give it as much versatility as possible. Then people can use what is best for their circumstance.

Maybe once stuck or select it is auto selected and auto moves with the plane as adjusted. So if you start by moving the plane and stick wheels then select a wheel higher up that is not touching but move the plane the selected wheel will move with the plane where it was and not when it would touch the plane if you moved itup. If you did the opposite and moved theplane up and stuck the upper wheel manually then moved it back down it would be on the same level as the other wheels etc. That would give some versatitility to the plane tool.

Example1: If I had a plane and it started a way below the current plane, below all wheels and not touching any, and I selected all the wheels and moved the plane(after being set to that planes influence). The wheels would move as they were relative to any moves of the plane as of the time of their initial selection(if it was added 3 feet above the planes surface and the plane is moved up it would move up and remain 3 ft above the plane as long as it can physically given the games alloted parameters). (Locked relative to the plane/surface. AKA moves up down back forth as you move the plane! But not automatically "Aligned" to the surface of the attached plane but not touching if true when locked/selected! IE if the wheel is not flat but off to the side on the y axis it will not adjust to be flat relative to the planes surface. This would be the purpose of somehow selecting the part and the desired plane and hitting the new align key! That should be doable without moving any parts merely highlighting them! This is part of why a mode is needed!)

Example2: If I moved the plane into the wheels they would align and then move with the plane on it's surface.(Stuck to the plane/surface) The first and most obvious purpose for this is adjusting the wheels to the ground and deciding on the angle on takeoff and landing! stuck parts work by moving the plane and having the game apply the adjust key automatically/invisibly and then autoselecting the parts invisibly when at the perfect possition and aligned. This would save alot of hassle with wheel adjustment and other parts alignment.

Suggestion1: I recomend one of those bottom round buttons be for the welding option. Another one be an Align button to work with the planar mode or wherever else it is applicable. If there are permitted multiple planes at once and planes are left even when not visible this could be usalbe if you attached things to a plane later.

Then if selected one wheel with a plane out but not attached I could hit align and align it. Or align any and all items aligned with the current selected plane.

Suggestion2: If a mode is used selected items could be highlighted in green. Touched items could be in a differnt color. And if more than one plane is in view at once the current selected plane could be brighter with all it's parts and the unhighlighted planes darkened.

The alignment tool could then also be used to adjust and move items not attached and far away and allow them to be kept in relative position to each other. This, again, could be done by selection over the touching option. This could be at mimimum good for making real aircraft. And be a way to help do more complex constructions.

Suggestion3: If in a mode you could also change the sidebar showing current engines and the staging and use it to show which items are attached to which plane. completely changing it's use in that mode. This could work exactly the same but load differnt items and numbers of planes from the previous window. Then if you have 5 planes out you could see and mouse over which items are in which planes control. You could also drag and drop and even possibly select new items and put them in preexisting planes. This would help alot if complex organization is needed or desired. ***You could also allow multiple planes on one items or vise versa but different rules and controls may need to be added. But this could allow control such as rotating on a joint etc. It could also be the base logic for adding this in game in general and many more methods of adjusting items in game! This could also be used to test certain parts aerodynamics and other qualities if used cleverly.

Suggestion4: This pic shows basically and X axis(forgive me if this is the wrong axis.). It could also show the angle of the y axis and the z axis based on a giving starting point. This could also be adjustable for more complex options in game. You could change the parts starting locations and adjust the planes orientation adjusting it's stated Z axis mid use for many many purposes!

Suggestion5: And obviously shortcuts woudl be need to be added to all the new buttons in some manner. Or atleast the adjust plane button on the bottom with the new welding button. It may need to be used while the mouse is preoccupied. This could be new shortcut keys or reusing current ones in the mode. It depends on desired or needed functions. I think either one has benefits and drawbacks given the current layout. Depends if you need to keep going back into the plane mode to add them and see them or something differnent. You may also need a way to deselect all planes. I would think this would be automatic with changing modes. But this would indicate it may be good to make them visible out of mode. At which point a button to make them visible/invisible would be good independent of the mode and quickly and easily available during design. Regardless of mode. this would, again, all suggect they should probably be visible after placed unless made invisible. Or an option could be added to make them auto disapear out of mode. I would make them default visible with a shortcut then add a button to make them auto invisible out of mode if desired.

Suggestion6: Find a word better than "plane" as it would get confused with the "aircraft" you are designing.

If the alignment of the plane is completely sperate from the button 3 where you change the axis around the sphere(IE mode 3 overides and acts seperately from all other planes), this could be very useful for temporarily moving items and then readjust to a plane. It could save a previous parts angles base adjustment. Especially if the planes save and reload with the saved info it could very much help aircraft testing. Then you would probably want the ability to independently check the angles of all parts freely. Then you can do all sorts of aircraft designs very easily! And you coudl save the previous plane to reset if you don't like the desired change. This would make it less neccesary to keep a million save/craft files. Though i don't know how much bigger it would force the individual save/craft files to become.

To think of it you could also make it so you can create new planes symetrical like items(Mirrored: 1/2; Radial: 1-8) and place them like items. Then you could adjust them like you would wings or whatnot. Then you could more easily set items to that xyz settings of a given plane giving use to the previous alignment buttons on the bottom as well! 8) The planes could be saved as true massless parts and loaded with the aircraft but become invisible and have absolutley no physics in the game when flying. Maybe even unloaded on launch and reloaded when returning to the VAB or SPH.

Did I simplify this or make it more confusing!?

Example3: If you used the ability to select items move a plane combined with welding you could move objects and design planes in ways you currently cannot. You could select a part of an assembly(one made by welding) along with other parts not attached. You could move the plane and they would all move relative to each other. You could then plane and align and even weld new parts. This would act like an idea I had previously as a parts fabricator as you could do all sorts of things and drag the plane to the sub assembly window and save it and bring it back in. That would add endless new ways of making plane parts. It could even save the plane etc for reattachment later. I would imagine this would free up any nodes by nature. Then at worse you are working around multiple nodes needin to be attached at once. but that could be solved with welding between selected parts that are close to each other. You could re assemble subasemblies and weld the nodes back together seperate of the node attaching. This could actually add infininite nodes to construction! Although I beleive you can technically do that now. Either way it would add much more interesting and complex assmeblies and subasemblies to the game as a whole. Especially to the stock game. You could probably do most of the stuff in mods with stock but at a parts count disadvantage. Either way it would also, as stated, allow the saving of unatached parts as subasemblies. They could be kept relative via their attachments to the planes saved into the subassembly.

You could also addanother button to create plane on the bottom and allow it to be manipulated with the 123 mode buttons etc. Then the mode button on top could be for seeing planes and attached items in the staging area or it could be unused all. I think it could be a toggle for which screen you see. IE. Either staging and no angles planes or show planes and use staging for showing planes info with attached parts. Whatever gives the most functionality and help to the player. There are alot of ways to potentially handle something like these in the game. Each with different drawbacks and advantages.

New pic here:

Summary of pic:

Mode#5: toggle planes visually +- using staging to show planes and their attached parts. The visual part coul be options and just adjust what the staging area shows.(it will be a toggle and when active it's lit up. It does not take mouse control like the other buttons next to it. they can be used with and open while it is selected and toggling plane mode does not take away the other modes status. IE 5 can be toggled on and lit while any of the other modes are active and lit up. It is independent.)

New button#1: Add new plane as shown in middle of pic!

New button#2: Align button to align to plane or whatever else it would work for.

New button#3: Weld button to make welds. Might be a toggle on off button. Could be added as mode#6 instead. Or it could be an item at base, and affected via the mirror/radial options as previously stated, and the button used for something else.

Green items are items that are in one way or another currently in view with the currently selected plane(s).

The current value for the angle of the X axis should be visible somehow as well as Y and Z. The previous mode buttons could be used to adjust the plane beyond the ability to grab and move as previously stated. The plane itself could also have a mouse and keyboard ability to adjust the plane outside of other mode buttons up top. This would give versatility!

The middle of the pic represent the ability to adjust the parameters of the plane and move the plane with the mouse via clicking and moving/grab and move and the ability to adjust angles etc.

As stated, the other states like mirror and radial along with number of parts could be set prior to hitting new plane to create planes that are relative to each other as a new part could be. This could allow planes to be set in mirror likea set of wings and adjust in a mirrored way as preset setof angles for wing on the plane. Selecting the plane first the the parts could attach them. If not selecint the plane could select thee plane and all already attacked parts. A shift click or second click to select the plane on it's own and then individual parts for alignment independent of previously attached parts. the oposite may be better. First click on plane is temporary action. Clicking the plane twice brings up all previously attached parts and allows adding of parts to the plane more permanently(or until removed.).

Example1: Create a flat simple plane as above. Clicking once would select the plane for temporary actions. This means selecting other parts and usind align button or moving the plane.Even moving the plane temporarily. This could use a shadow plane or a snapback feature if there were parts attached or create a new plane for later reference. If you click the same plane a second time you are now dealing with all previously attached items seperately from the temporary or via ignoraing them. A third time click could add the temp items to the plane in their current possition and remove the temp plane adding them permanently automatically or requiring a key to add them to the plane deleting the temp plane! recycling a 4th click to go back to state 1 and the temp items seperate from the main parts and being the reason for a temp plane being created. Lots of things could be done for parts alignments logic. Use your imagination!

Exampel2: As above the first click selects the plane and adds items. The second click then goes to temp mode. And clicking after goes back and forth between with the stated above logic. This allow minor adjustments within the realm of a plane for even more control and options! A button could still be used to force them into the plane from temp mode if that is needed. Or deselection could replace it entirely. It depends if you add the ability to joint items and move planes in conjuction of each other. And what happens with combined logic. It could be done simply or in a more thorough manner for more options. Maybe simply adding more click to cycle through would be easy to add more modes of adjustment to planes. Then it could be expanded endlessly. the 5th mode button could make them availabe over normal adjustment logic. some indicator could be used like color of the plane or a name under it to see what mode it is in.

These two examples add a way to adjust multple parts withing the realm of a plane or multple parts on top of using the 1/2/3 modes to move individual items.

I keep adding logic to it but It's kinda just sitting there and this part of the game is completely undeveloped. Even though it is just about the most influencial part of the game...

And to weld you just need parts close enough to each other that parts of their cicumferances touch or some other applicaple/placable plane on the part(s). Probably have to select parts to do it though so the game can know what is in view.

Also to simplify something. To move items independent of a plane it is attached too you could simply toggle planes off and move it seperately. When toggled back on the new location will be considered it's relative placement in regards to the plane it was already attached to. AKA it is selected and attached to a plane like an engine is to a stage. Even if It is just not always visually shown. Basically when you toggle planes on it recaptures the item and uses all previous info applicable to apply it to the plane again. but it has a new starting point.

Too simplify even more the align key could have two purposes. First click is to align to a plane. If already aligned and clicked again it auto sticks the item to the plane and moves it to where the plane is(as opposed to how you would normally move the plane to the item. obviously that leaves out the ability to stick it at an odd angle. Maybe sticking could also be done another way in case this is needed. Like moving the item via draging onto the plane as well. Or a new button added like if Weld is an item and not a button.). Limitation could exist in regards to if it could already move that far down or not or whatever else is desired.. You could always move things and click again.

Only other thing I can think of is a way to input a number for the given angles. Including fractions for very detailed placements.

Only other issues I can think of are the concept in the pic of selected items. If they are attached but have the rear engine and the middle part attached do you allow indpendent movement somehow. I assume dafault behavior is to treat it like a single part and all atached parts add in. but how could you treat it independently. Or is that not something that needs adding.... It could hypothetically if the planes angle is changes rotate on the current parts joints or move up to the entire vehicle..... Maybe some way to give the plane a status too see which way it will currently behave like a color or shade not already used or applied to the existing logic.

Also the planes are basically treated as items but no mass etc. They can be selected and used in various ways depending on what features are added to them. Plus if planes can be added to the control of other planes you could premodel your craft in various ways.

While planar mode is active all items just selected could also be capable of being moved with the grab function without losing it's attachment to it's parent item. Unless there is a weld in which case all welded items move as one.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Arugela

[pandaman]

This looks like a nice idea, I will try to summarise what I think you are suggesting in order to make sure I understand properly. ..

What I think you suggest is a 'gizmo' tool that creates an 'artificial floor' that you can position under the vessel. You then 'set' the wheels in contact with, and vertical to, this 'floor plane'

Apologies if I misunderstood your idea. Please correct me if I'm on the wrong track.

A slightly easier way may be to create the 'floor' in contact with the lowest (or selected) wheel and parallel to the ground by default, with the ability to adjust the angle relative to the ground while still maintaining contact with the chosen wheel.

Being able to set undercarriage like this and 'in line' with a simple 'gizmo' would be a handy thing to have.

[Arugela]

That is the base idea, yea! The rest is just expanding it, since it's a basic plane(geometry), to have some simple means to use it for as many other things as you could think of hopefully. Mainly setting items to the plane in various ways using the existing interface. Like making two planes in mirror around the hull(or even independeently) and then putting the angle to the angle of wings to show what it is and to allow quick adjust etc. If they are savable to the craft file and can be toggled on of they could also act as references to the planes design by showing angles and relative position to other planes depending on how it is setup. Namely if you can set one plane in the control of anoteher and the Z axis shows relative distance(height) etc. Or whatever else it can be used for.

Basically I was trying to make an easy of a way(based on the current interface) to get it to use a geometric plane in as many ways as possible to help in design using what the game has... Probably over complicated it a bit.

I went with treating it as an item since you can already do this easily and the parameters are probably set to make it almost invisible and hopefully unloadable on the runway. Plus you could have more than one if needed and possibley attach other items to it as a placeholder to do things the game currently doesn't let you do. Like floating items. Since currently you need to have an item attached to make a subasembly. This could let you save just the planes items as a subassembly and bring them back in for welding in shapes you wouldn't normally be able to make opening up some potential design ideas not currently possible. this could be accomplished possibley by setting attached items to a plane and draging or copying the plane and putting it in the sub assembly to let you save those parts uantached to anything as independing floating parts as a base assembly model for various things. Or whatever else you can think of.

Say you are making something like a millenium falcon or some other space ship. You can use a plane and a bunch of loose frames to set the cockpit and certain main features only save the parts you want to use in their already exising relative positions. Select the plane and the items to put it in it's influence like in engine staging and save the plane as a subassembly with them attacked and bring it back into a new save to start building off them. This would allow multiple parts at the beginnning of a build with loose(ned) nodes not attached to other items and in the general place you wanted them.

You could also save craft ina new way in multipel subassemblies that people could put together to weld. This may be interesting in some builds to let people know the craft better. Or in even more creative ways in the building of puzzles and more interesting structures currenlty not buildable in the game because of the limits of the UI.

Weld and new plane could also be items to save two buttons. Then you only add one new align button. Although if any I think the weld button would need a shortcut or mode to make it convenient as you may need to use it alot. You could always pull out several planes since it is an object if you needed and sit them out for later use or similar.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Arugela