Proposed 'Red Dragon' Mars Sample Return by 2022.

[Exoscientist]

'Red Dragon' Mars Sample-Return Mission Could Launch by 2022.

by Mike Wall, Space.com Senior Writer | September 10, 2015 09:00am ET

Feasible concept?

There's no reason why this potential mission should not work, Gonzales said.

Even the most eyebrow-raising part of the plan  landing the roughly 10-ton Red Dragon capsule softly on Mars  is feasible without any big technological leaps, he and colleague Larry Lemke, a now-retired former Ames researcher, stressed during the FISO talk.

While Red Dragon is far too heavy for the rocket-powered "sky crane" system that put the 1-ton Curiosity down and will be used again for the 2020 rover, detailed modeling studies suggest that the vehicle could land safely using its onboard SuperDraco thrusters. (These engines will come standard on the crew-carrying Dragon variant SpaceX is developing, as well as newer versions of the cargo Dragon. The SuperDracos' main purpose is to get the capsule to safety in the event of a launch emergency.)

Red Dragon is too heavy to use parachutes, but it could slow down enough for the SuperDracos to take over by entering the thin Martian atmosphere at a relatively shallow angle, thereby subjecting itself to the effects of drag for a long period of time, Lemke said.

So how much would all of this cost? It's unclear at the moment, because the team has not yet drawn up any cost estimates. But Gonzales said he's hopeful that the Red Dragon concept would be considerably cheaper than the Mars sample-return effort envisioned by the 2013 Decadal Survey, which would likely cost around $6 billion.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Exoscientist

[Yukon0009]

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure that the Dragon would need a lot of modifications to be a Mars lander.

[SargeRho]

Actually, it seems like a Crew Dragon could land on Mars on its own.

[Mazon Del]

How many modifications is a bit up for debate. The vehicle would certainly be specialized yes, but Musk has said now and then that he'd like to try to make it such that the one vehicle is capable of being used for both Earth and Mars landings, and there is some debate about the possibility that it could also succeed at Moon landings if done correctly.

[Kartoffelkuchen]

Yeah, Dragon would need some modifications. BTW, why couldn't Dragon just slow down by using parachutes, and then do the last metres by using its SuperDracos? That would safe fuel and would reduce mass.

[Ralathon]

and there is some debate about the possibility that it could also succeed at Moon landings if done correctly.

[Mazon Del]

My understanding was that for a Moon variant there would be a modified design, largely the same as the others but with additional fuel capacity in some format. At the cost perhaps of crew or cargo capacity.

[Streetwind]

This proposal is probably at least a year old... I remember seeing a 1-hour video presentation on it sometime in 2014, where all of this was already worked out in detail. Looks like nobody took it seriously back then, but now that the SuperDracos were demonstrated working in the abort test and SpaceX has made progress on propulsive landing operations, it's getting some resurgence.

...also maybe because there's a new round of NASA calling for mission proposals or something, not sure.

[Mazon Del]

Probably a bit more likely is that Musk is willing to make a deal with NASA that isn't necessarily economically viable, but ends up having NASA cover some of their R&D costs for a system they were going to be independently developing anyway. So instead of NASA fully funding it on their own, they are probably more like partners.

[Endersmens]

And here I read the title and thought of Starwhip...

Cool idea though!

[SargeRho]

The Red Dragon would stay on Mars. Getting from Mars to Earth is doable with a small 2-stage rocket, which is exactly what'd be done here.

[Motokid600]

Is it really worth all this just for a simple sample return? Seems like a lot of effort for very little reward.

[SargeRho]

Yes, I think so. We can analyze things on Earth in far greater detail than on Mars. Unless we had a science-outpost on Mars.

[Kryten]

Is it really worth all this just for a simple sample return? Seems like a lot of effort for very little reward.

A pristine Martian surface sample is not 'very little reward', it's what the entire Mars science community has been trying to work towards for the past ~40 years. It allows levels of analysis far beyond what any lander could do in-situ.

[Motokid600]

I suppose. It just seems like a lot for just some rocks and soil. I guess the process itself will be good experience.

[SargeRho]

"just some rocks and soil" that are immensely valuable.

[Motokid600]

"just some rocks and soil" that are immensely valuable.

How so exactly? Unless it's to examine a site for a future landing how is it "immensely" valuable?

Unless we scatter these sample returns across the planet how is it "immensely" valuable? What can a sample of soil and rocks from ONE area tell us what we don't already know?

Edit: So after reading the entire article they plan to pick up samples collected by the rover. Which means more diversity. Which is better. But still... Imo it does not justify two falcon heavy launches. Especially for the amount they intend to bring back.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Motokid600

[SargeRho]

Would you rather build a manned base on Mars? With all of the scientific installations that modern laboratories have? That's the point. You can do far, far more analysis on Earth than a Mars rover ever could.

[Nibb31]

It's not just some rocks and soil. The lunar samples from Apollo are some of the most precious artefacts on Earth for many reasons.

The idea of Red Dragon is nothing new. The idea is that it might be cheaper to use a modified Dragon as a landing platform rather than to use a dedicated lander like previous Mars missions. The cost problem has yet to be demonstrated, but the fact is that it will necessarily be less efficient with a lot of wasted landing weight and a smaller payload than a dedicated lander of the same size.

A conventional lander sheds its aeroshell and heatshield to minimize landing weight and only lands a minimalistic platform on the surface. This allows it to use smaller parachutes and smaller landing rockets. Power-landing the entire Dragon pressure vessel, aeroshell, and heatshield serves no purpose and just cuts into the payload fraction by requiring more fuel and bigger engines.

The mission is to get a payload to Mars, not PR for SpaceX.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Nibb31

[Kibble]

Sincere question: is it just me or does sending Dragon to Mars for a sample return sound ridiculous?

[Nibb31]

It does.

This is how JPL envisions a sample return lander.

Why would you want to use a 10 ton orbital taxi instead of a smaller and more efficient lander? Using a dedicated lander allows a larger payload, and therefore a bigger MAV that can carry more samples.

[Motokid600]

That's what I'm getting at essentially. A sample return is great, but this plan is too much for "just some soil and rock"

Do it with a dedicated lander. Do it with one launch.

[Nibb31]

Who said it was manned? Red dragon is a one-way unmanned lander that replaces a JPL-designed lander.

[cryogen]

Sincere question: is it just me or does sending Dragon to Mars for a sample return sound ridiculous?

It is ridiculous!

A conventional lander sheds its aeroshell and heatshield to minimize landing weight and only uses a minimalistic platform on the surface. This allows it to use smaller parachutes and smaller landing rockets. Carrying the entire Dragon pressure vessel, aeroshell, and heatshield serves no purpose and just cuts into the payload fraction by requiring more fuel and bigger engines.

Exactly, it's tonnes of useless dead weight. The baseline NASA concept would have 1/10th the mass on the Mars surface, to accomplish exactly the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's a set of slides about this concept (don't think it's been linked yet):

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Gonzales-Lemke_9-9-15/

[fredinno]

Red Dragon does have lower R&D costs to it's advantage.

Either way, a NASA sample return mission will most likely be put on a SLS to fill out the launch scedule, meaning that the amount of samples returned would be very high (possibly more than a ton).

Edited September 17, 2015 by fredinno