Corn syrup as liquid fuel

[Tex_NL]

Where else can you read such gems other than this forum????

True. This one of the few fora in the world where a remark like that will actually be taken serious.

[Bill Phil]

Doesn't diluting it ruin it as a fuel? For rocket flight you need the maximum energy content per mass and volume. You'd need a variant that flows smoothly in native form, especially after heating.

Not if you dilute it with another fuel type. But then you should just use that fuel.

For rocket flight you want what you need. If you have low Isp, but that's what you wanted, then it's perfect.

[GDJ]

Sure! Corn Syrup and Potassium Nitrate in the right ratio, you have model rocket fuel!

[Ethanadams]

Back to chlorine trifloride

"It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water  with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals  steel, copper, aluminum, etc.  because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."

[SomeGuy12]

Sweet. Sounds to me like we just weld together a set of metal propellant tanks, fill one with whatever fuel we happen to have handy, and the other with chlorine trifloride. Pressurize em both, open 2 valves, presto, rocket thrust! What could possibly go wrong? I see no need for further R&D, gonna order up the materials and CLF3 now. Bet I can have a rocket going by the end of the weekend. *

*In light of certain news articles where people were taken out of context : yes, I'm kidding. I don't think you can order CLF3 from any chemical supply house anywhere, and I'm aware that even if you could get it into a tank, it would probably attack the welds or the seals inside the valves. Also, helium pressurization is not what they use on lower stages of rockets, pressurizing a tank to high pressure containing CLF3 sounds like a gold star Darwin Award. Finally, building any kind of rocket using the "hold my beer while I weld this together and get it fired up by the end of the weekend" method is going to result in disaster, even if you use a proven, simple design.

Edited October 2, 2015 by SomeGuy12

[PB666]

Back to chlorine trifloride

"It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water  with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals  steel, copper, aluminum, etc.  because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."

Well if you only need running shoes, try this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1 scroll down to 1961.

I don't know why we bring the term toxicity into the equation anyway. A firing rocket engine is extremely toxic, it is also a radiation hazard as well as a trauma hazard. Trinitrotoluene is also toxic, though i think eating would probably circumvent its toxicity.

[SciMan]

Seeing as sugar + KNO3 = smoke mix (and sugar-based solid rocket fuel), it should work in theory.

However the only way I see it working in practice is if you have an "inside-out" hybrid rocket.

Solid oxidizer, liquid fuel. I'm 5-sigma sure that hasn't been tested yet.

Also, I don't know if any hybrid rocket has ever run off of a solid-liquid mix. AFAIK they're usually solid-gas.

The engine would likely have insurmountable problems with mixing the fuel with the oxidizer well enough to avoid combustion instabilities.

Perhaps adding a lot of carbon black to the corn syrup would help stabilize the burn rate (as is done for N2O/HPTB hybrid rockets), but you would still have a big problem with getting the syrup to mix with the oxidizer instead of just carmelizing and clogging up the fuel nozzles.

In other words, the "sticky" part of sugars is more problematic than the "sweet" part not being reactive enough, at least for liquid fuel use.

The corn syrup is far better used as a (limited) part of the diet of a rocket scientist, not the diet of a rocket.

[Nothalogh]

Hmm, I see, the chemical breakdown of the sugar would present a problem.

This is as bad as boron zip fuels and their solid oxide deposits post combustion

[Nothalogh]

The corn syrup is far better used as a (limited) part of the diet of a rocket scientist, not the diet of a rocket.

But I was trying to come up with a better use for corn syrup than food, which it tastes terrible in

[SuperFastJellyfish]

Like someone said earlier, toss some yeast in it, and let it sit for a bit while the yeast make their ethanol waste. Distill the ethanol, and you're good. Use the ethanol for fuel. It flows like water so you can feed it much easier than the more viscous corn syrup, and the ethanol will give you a better ISP.

Edited October 3, 2015 by SuperFastJellyfish

[Brethern]

Doesn't diluting it ruin it as a fuel? For rocket flight you need the maximum energy content per mass and volume. You'd need a variant that flows smoothly in native form, especially after heating.

V2 rockets were ran off an ethanol water mixture. So if it works it's not a dumb idea.

[Guest]

Imagine if that exploded.

[Nothalogh]

Imagine if that exploded.

If which exploded, the liquid sugar rocket?

[YNM]

Of course ethanol (alcohol) needs to be a water mixture. Else the alcohol would to that themself. I mean, 100% spirit are like really rare...

Corn syrup... Maybe make it into solid motor would be better than liquid motor. I mean, decomposition of sugar are gross, for the requirements of liquid fuel motor.

[SciMan]

There are already people making solid-fuel sugar rockets.

Look up "R-candy" for more details.

It's essentially sugar-based smoke mix in a rocket-motor tube with a clay nozzle. Works well enough for what it is, I suppose.

Of course the specific impulse is predictably terrible.

[Guest]

If which exploded, the liquid sugar rocket?

Yes, the corn syrup one.

[Nothalogh]

Yes, the corn syrup one.

Oh, yes, it would be quite the sticky situation

[Teilnehmer]

What about chicken fat as fuel?