FAR Fighter Challenge BD Armoury AI: 2!!

[Van Disaster]

kk, Lemme see the vid and I'll update the OP.

@Van Disaster: Sorry, but I must have missed the DL for your Swallow, mid posting it again?

It's in post 3 in the challenger list, they all are.

EzBro, I put a checklist for fight coordinators in post 3 as well. Vessel Mover is easy enough, hit Alt-P, WASDQE to move the thing, then Alt-P again. As you say it's not really a big deal, but aside from removing any grounds for complaint if nothing else it's a lot less messy when you repeat fights a lot.

[E805BzRo]

Here are the links to the videos of Kerolev FS-17 vs GG HRF-12.

Round 1: Kerolev FS-17 win (gun kill at 3:20)

Round 2: GG HRF-12 win (gun kill at 2:05)

Round 3: GG HRF-12 win (gun kill at 1:30)

2:1 for GG HRF-12.

Cheers,

EzBro

[Van Disaster]

You ran the Swallow F1 which I pulled rather than the F2 in the challenger list, btw - it went to the back of the list, but it was already at the back of the list anyway so the order didn't change. Not that it apparently matters in this case, but that is definitely something to keep an eye on. I set all my craft up to be ready once they're staged - I think gridghost does the same - which would explain your confusion at the start

( bits fall off the F2 deliberately, easy to tell apart ). I might enter this basic engined version for fun, it's been quite ridiculously good when the AI doesn't park it in front of the opponent.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

Oh, you found the videos already... and I took the wrong plane. Should I run the fights again with Swallow F2?

I guess this question goes to all!

So, for everybody, this is the situation:

- I ran the fight GG HRF-12 vs Swallow already, but I took Swallow F1, which is technically not listed as contestant.

- Swallow F1 won.

- Next fight is Swallow vs my K-191. It would be awkward to change to Swallow F2 now, but Van Disaster will also not be happy if we run K-191 vs Swallow F1 and K-191 wins, as the K2 is probably the stronger plane.

In my opinion the clean solution is to re-run GG HRF-12 vs Swallow F2, even if the outcome will be the same (Swallow will most definitely win).

The videos are up anyhow, so why not share them. Here are the links to GG HRF-12 vs Swallow F1:

1:

2:

Swallow won both times, so no third round.

Actually I ran the fight again, this time using VesselMover and trying to start the planes simultaneously (still failing). This time the Swallow needed 4 fights until the result was clear:

1:

2:

3:

4:

First round was a draw (Swallow crashed into GG after wrecking it with the gun). Winners of the following 3 rounds were: Swallow - GG - Swallow.

Edited October 29, 2015 by E805BzRo

[Van Disaster]

Fairly clear - rerun, I'm afraid, it's not actually in the contender list; if I'd gone "oops wrong plane" yesterday that would have been a bit different ( and a withdrawal ). I've spent a couple of hours knocking up a howto vid on fight setup which is going to take an hour and a half more to render ( most of that just to add some blur so the captions are clearer! urg ), let alone upload - but it should be up tomorrow. Still this is all good practice, no?

TBH the F2 isn't really that much better, but it is what it is.

Edit: here's the setup guide, I'll link in post #3 too.

This assumes you've installed Vessel Mover, but there's really no reason not to.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

So the Swallow F1 fights were just for your entertainment and a welcome exercise for me. I learnt to start the planes simultaneously, yey.

Here is the first round of GG HRF-12 vs Swallow F2.

Swallow F2 wins (gun kill at 2:00).

Next round is uploading, expect it when I'm back from work, 14h from now.

Next thing on my list is video quality. I'll try recording in 1280x720 right away (instead of downscaling from 1920x1200), which might make image rate more fluent and get rid of the black borders left and right that you get if you watch my present videos full screen on a 16:9 monitor.

First thing I noticed after setting KSP video to 1280x720: planes break up more often. It seems that physics rate is linked to frame rate in some kind of way. My game was not running super-jerky before, so I was even more astonished to find that my upcoming K-19x is garbage if run at high FPS. Anyway I guess it is a good idea to test your planes at low resolution / high frame rate before submitting. Otherwise you will suffer through the confusion of the person running the fights reporting that your plane self-destructs all the time, which never happened on your PC. Happened to me.

[Van Disaster]

It is somewhat linked to fps, although it's more fair to say that fps is capped by the physics; how much is dependent on the max physics frame time slider, which is basically "how much physics can we do inbetween drawing a frame". I have an i7 cpu overclocked to 4.4Ghz so for these fights I'm able to add more between-frame physics, which is probably why my fights are harshest on everyone's craft.

Can you try and pull back from the planes slightly, like you did around 2 mins? having half the screen full of plane just makes you look at the plane rather than appreciate how the fight is looking ( tends to obscure the opponent somewhat too ). I guess some of that might be how you're targetting the videos - I upload at 1080p & intend people to either watch full screen or at least pop out to a bigger window than an embed.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

OK, I'll pull back a bit more then. But I will keep it at 720p, otherwise I need a new GPU (actually I wonder how that can be - more demanding games run fluently. What, precisely, is the bottleneck in KSP?).

Here is the second and last round of GG HRF-12 vs Swallow F2.

Swallow F2 wins both fights by gun kill.

Edited October 30, 2015 by E805BzRo

[Van Disaster]

The bottleneck is the physics calcs, which is why framerate collapses above a certain part count - because if it can't do all the physics calcs for a frame in time it'll delay the next frame, which is why the clock turns yellow ( and if it's really terrible, red ). I have an OC'd AMD 7970 which is still good enough to run practically everything I have on maxed out settings, and GPU use in one of these fights with gfx settings maxed, 1920x1080 and the clock flickering between green & yellow is a whole 70-80%. Part count performance hit seems *much* worse in 1.0.

Just one of those KSP quirks, like FAR occasionally having the wrong data about your craft or how one will underperform for a series of fights ( which I suspect might be related ).

Next fights should be interesting; I suspect this'll be a brief reign as champ but in my own tests the F2 has won a fair few ( some not even by luck! ). It's pretty old by now though and the AI pilot does not like it at all

Edited October 30, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

Hhm, so before buying new hardware I should probably wait for the next KSP version. They should be able to shrink the hardware demand to something that corresponds to the graphics - which is turn of the millennium at best.

Man, I'm so looking forward to the K-191 fight - and (if it wins) even more so to the next challenger after that. Preparing for whatever puts an end to the K-191, I built 2 planes from scratch today that beat Swallow F2 and K-191 (one with basic jet engine :-)). Seem to get the knack of it. But I can not submit it before the K-191 is beat, so... Get on with it, please!

Cheers,

EzBro

[SpaceplaneAddict]

k, I'll be doing fights now.

[Van Disaster]

Man, I'm so looking forward to the K-191 fight - and (if it wins) even more so to the next challenger after that. Preparing for whatever puts an end to the K-191, I built 2 planes from scratch today that beat Swallow F2 and K-191 (one with basic jet engine :-)). Seem to get the knack of it. But I can not submit it before the K-191 is beat, so... Get on with it, please!

I'm fairly sure there's nothing in the rules about multiple submissions - Dwerto had the D-9 & D-10 queued recently, and I'm pretty sure he ran two of his against each other. I've had a pair of far better craft for a week ( well I guess three with the much improved Swallow I have ) I just can't improve them any more without some better opposition to test against. I'll put a basic engined craft in for fun though once this fight is run.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Guest]

Check this one out: http://kerbalx.com/RevanCorana/F-22-Raptor-by-RC

It's a bit heavy part count but it can do insane maneuvers between mach 1 and 2 (35+ g 4500kN lift).

Also almost unbreakable.

I know it's not 100% accurate to the original but it's my first good FAR plane so bare with me.

Since then I've done a Su47, Euro Typhoon to test behavior of different wings configuration and I'm now trying to make the REAL best fighter in the world, the dassault rafale xD

I mean come on the F22 may have higher tech but it's simply heavier, has the fake stealth bs, and yea 4 times the cost!

The rafale is so quick and agile, a real dogfighter

Edited October 31, 2015 by RevanCorana

[Van Disaster]

Check this one out: http://kerbalx.com/RevanCorana/F-22-Raptor-by-RC

Hi! I presume by the complete lack of BDA parts that this isn't an entry? if it is, please read post #1 and follow the checklists in post #3, and we'll welcome you to the contest.

I'd be a bit careful talking about unbreakable planes if you followed the thread, my KSP installs are plane wreckers

Edited November 1, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Guest]

Hi! I presume by the complete lack of BDA parts that this isn't an entry? if it is, please read post #1 and follow the checklists in post #3, and we'll welcome you to the contest.

I'd be a bit careful talking about unbreakable planes if you followed the thread, my KSP installs are plane wreckers

That's what the *almost* is there for

Right I meant to post this in the supermaneuverabe 5th gen fighter challenge my bad! lol

Btw I may also have a valid entry for you soon

this is a rafale which uses some B9 parts

Edited November 1, 2015 by RevanCorana

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Which uses some B9 parts

;( Sorry to rain on this awesome craft, but this is a stock challenge.

However, after the queue is emptied tomorrow, I may put a vote to bring in one specially selected mod to assist with maneuverability,design, etc.

-SPAddict

Looks like a fine craft though.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, B9 is still only for 0.90, we're currently using 1.0.4 for this challenge.

[Guest]

;( Sorry to rain on this awesome craft, but this is a stock challenge.

However, after the queue is emptied tomorrow, I may put a vote to bring in one specially selected mod to assist with maneuverability,design, etc.

-SPAddict

Looks like a fine craft though.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, B9 is still only for 0.90, we're currently using 1.0.4 for this challenge.

Aw too bad, B9 works fine for me in 1.04 tho.

Except some parts have glitched textures but it cut in half the part count still so..

Edited November 1, 2015 by RevanCorana

[G'th]

^ There is a 1.04 version of B9 out. Only issue I've encountered seems to be with the cargobays not functioning as they should be but other than that it works awesome.

I recommend cutting his wings though and switching to his procedural ones.

[Van Disaster]

Ahaha, you think the queue is going to empty, bless EzBro & I have at least two each I think, and Dwerto was working on something.

If there's one part mod I'd pick it'd probably be B9 pWings ( which is standalone ) - the other I'd look at is procedural parts, I tried AJE but it didn't make enough of a difference with our contest rules to be worth it right now - but I'd rather we exhausted the possibilities of stock first. I get the feeling we're currently heading into areas where matches are decided by the AI more than the craft, which smells a lot of luck given it's fondness for randomly flying in straight lines. Once it's clear we've got there, then perhaps we should add a new factor. And yeah, there's been a B9 version for 1.0 for some time, just not completely functional.

Regardless, entries have to follow the existing rules, and we've tried to make them as clear as possible.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Van Disaster

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Maybe, what about a combo of B9 procedural wings, and the BD parts pack, which includes the extremely maneuverable jet?

-SPAddict

I don't know if I'll ever have the time to build and test some of my own.

[Guest]

Done! It flies awesome, super lightweight

It has a total of 72 parts, only 3 of which are modded ones (bahamuto cockpit + B9 mk2 fuselage + B9 bicoupler)

Really glad with the result, I'll try adding missiles and stuff on it tomorrow.

[SpaceplaneAddict]

So sorry, my bad. Those mods I named were suggestions to vote on later.

-SPAddict

I like the design anyway

[Guest]

Sure thing!

We will see how it turns out.

I like making an awesome craft more than winning a challenge anyway hehe

And thanks ^^

[E805BzRo]

Ahaha, you think the queue is going to empty, bless EzBro & I have at least two each I think, and Dwerto was working on something.

Right, I have one plane with small jet engine that beats K-191 most of the time. I submit it once I can be sure who the opponent will be.

I also have tons of almost final builds which I can base on in case I need a different profile (i.e. something different than insanely tight cornering). So if you ask me stock is not dead yet.

Still I am looking forward to having new parts to play with eventually.

RevanCorana, great stuff you are making! I always wanted to model some craft after a real plane, but in the end I seem to lack the patience. Your F22 and Rafale are really stunning. How many hours did you put into them?

[Van Disaster]

Maybe, what about a combo of B9 procedural wings, and the BD parts pack, which includes the extremely maneuverable jet?

-SPAddict

I don't know if I'll ever have the time to build and test some of my own.

I'll have to see what the BD engines are like now: B9 used to have some mad vectored thrust engines which I've not tested in the current one ( engines are one of the things that'd most likely to be broken ). I do wonder if we actually need vectoring engines given we're pulling 30-40 degree AoA without them, not sure how the AI is going to handle full supermanoeverability

That is a proper tail slide, I can't see it doing that...

I miss Retrofuture parts, they always made awesome looking planes. I got some way with a flyable Buccaneer ( check out the fuselage... ) with proc parts as well, but never really managed to finish that. Can't think of many shapes worse to attempt in KSP.

One thing I did think about was letting us change AI pilot settings for each fight; the fight coordinator can do that quickly without having to redownload new craft, it'd just have to be made absolutely clear what settings were for what fight, so some sort of formalized submission format. TBH it'd probably just be the Steer Factor anyway.

I'll install enough parts to get that Rafael airborne once you're done ( just make sure it has a radar ) & run it against some of our champs just to see, can knock a video out if there's any good fights.

If anyone can work out how to make Persistent Trails show both craft please let me know, because the results would be excellent.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Van Disaster