FAR Fighter Challenge BD Armoury AI: 2!!

[Guest]

Time to suggest mods to vote on later! If you want a mod to be included in this challenge, suggest it for later voting! I'll pick 2 of the best looking mods to vote on.

-SPAddict

B9 procedural wing!!!

[Van Disaster]

(insert random lack of sleep or low grades comment)

I'm not sure how to design a proper fighter jet. I keep coming back to this challenge, only to find out the next 100 new TE designs don't work, and that clones of the F-15 don't work either.

(excuse the narcissism)

For this, you need:

• Low wing loading
  
• Low angular momentum
  
• As high TWR as you can manage
  

In pretty much that order, because my basic jet seems pretty successful even with that tiny engine. To hit those targets you need to be as light as possible with as much wing as possible, and with the heavy bits as near to the middle of the craft as you can ( you'll have to compromise there to balance the engine/s ) The F-15 is a terrible thing to clone because it's enormous, if you want a US craft to pick as a dogfighter try the F-16 or something tiny like a F-5, or F-86.

I could talk a lot about wing shape & control tuning, but that's stuff you can find out or work out yourself, that's a lot of the fun of this.

SPA: go back a few pages & read what EzBro was saying about framerate & craft falling apart.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Van Disaster]

K-191 vs DR-4A has been run, in a brutal two rounds the K-191 retains the title. Video up in a couple of hours.

RevanCorona, is there an armed & radar'd Rafale to try? BD cockpit+B9+B9pW, right?

Hold off on the Hummingbird - the thing is the *exact same* as the prototype just saved out as a different name, and yet it doesn't fight the same at all. I don't get it.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Van Disaster]

K-191 vs DR-4A fights, both rounds.

[E805BzRo]

I'm trying KAX (with Firespitter) right now. If my test fights don't turn out too boring we could do a competition with propeller planes!

[Van Disaster]

There's also a prop engine around that needs AJE, might be worth a look. We'd be overlapping Tetrydis' WW2 challenge a fair bit though ( unless it was prop-seaplanes, that might work well ).

EzBro: can you test SPA's craft & see if it breaks up for you too?

I tweaked the Hummingbird's AI settings but frankly the complete stupidity of some of it's decisions is putting me off the entire thing.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

No, the Meme Fighter didn't break on my install. Pulled up to 28G and held. (Still Hummingbird won ;-) )

I am uploading a fight that I ran between two hurried propeller plane designs. Fights are a bit slower, KI still making the same mistakes. I'll post the link in the morning (11h from now).

[Van Disaster]

Well it can beat everything I have except my other new airframe - providing it doesn't do something utterly ridiculous in the opening moments, or just give up and fly in a straight line ( quite often they're both the same thing ). There's literally nothing I can do about that except design an airframe that won't go in a straight line

I'll try this RealEngines prop motor.

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Van Disaster, Is it possible to purge your mods and reinstall for a better look? I am currently doing the same. Extra mods on my install will be purely aesthetic.

-SPAddict

[Van Disaster]

I have a dedicated install for the tournament - only extra mods are editor/visuals/camera stuff. It's because I have a high-powered CPU which is managing more physics calcs( whether in the main process or FAR's seperate thread ), I'm reasonably sure. I dropped a question into the FAR thread about it just in case it's something unexpected.

I think we're at the point where we might have to move to best of 5 or best of 7, because the AI stupidity is causing more losses than craft design is winning fights... you can't design around a pilot that flies straight at a plane that's spraying bullets.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Van Disaster

[SpaceplaneAddict]

Ok, I actually agree.

Flight Coordinators: Best of 5 fights now, so a craft has to win 3 times to win.

[Van Disaster]

Well I think I made the Hummingbird a bit less suicidal, but I have to check it against a bunch of other craft again so I guess the F2 is pulled for now; if this isn't overall any better then I'll unpull it. Getting somewhat sick of yelling "WHYYYY!" at the screen so it might be a bit

[Van Disaster]

EzBro, SPa, can I get you guys to make a copy of your stock game, just add BDA/FAR/DD & Vessel Mover in and then retest your craft if you haven't?

EzBro also: can you give me the exact steps you did the other day when you gained more FPS & found your craft started falling apart? thanks.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Van Disaster

[E805BzRo]

OK, I'll do a separate install.

I gained more FPS by changing display settings.

Before: 1920x1200, 4xAA, full texture, render, and FX quality, physics delta 0.03

- time display more or less constantly yellow

- 20FPS, dropping as low as 10 if more than 2 planes are loaded (I always have several lined up for testing my craft)

After: 1280*720, 2xAA, hal texture and render quality, FX still full, physics delta 0.04

- time display green most of the time

- constantly >30FPS, average much higher

The F-22 that I submitted earlier was optimized and strutted while I used the low FPS settings. It could do 25G turns reliably, but I know from optimizing for hours that there was not much margin.

With high FPS settings, the F-22 broke up every time.

[Van Disaster]

Is it repeatable?

I did a clean install with just those mods & SPa's plane is breaking up 2/3 fights still.

[SpaceplaneAddict]

I redact my MemeFighter, seems I need a bit moar stability.

-SPAddict

[Guest]

OK, I'll do a separate install.

I gained more FPS by changing display settings.

Before: 1920x1200, 4xAA, full texture, render, and FX quality, physics delta 0.03

- time display more or less constantly yellow

- 20FPS, dropping as low as 10 if more than 2 planes are loaded (I always have several lined up for testing my craft)

After: 1280*720, 2xAA, hal texture and render quality, FX still full, physics delta 0.04

- time display green most of the time

- constantly >30FPS, average much higher

The F-22 that I submitted earlier was optimized and strutted while I used the low FPS settings. It could do 25G turns reliably, but I know from optimizing for hours that there was not much margin.

With high FPS settings, the F-22 broke up every time.

With B9 procedural wings and B9 lifting body parts I can make an F22 ish plane with 20 parts or so.

[Hodo]

With B9 procedural wings and B9 lifting body parts I can make an F22 ish plane with 20 parts or so.

The only problem I have found with the B9Prowings is if a craft goes out of the "magic" render range it resets the shape of the wings to default on reload.

[Guest]

The only problem I have found with the B9Prowings is if a craft goes out of the "magic" render range it resets the shape of the wings to default on reload.

Right happened to me once nasty bug, it also doesn't work with sketchfab but apart from that it's an incredible tool especially for FAR which tends to eat away fps exponentially with parts increase.

Oh and here's my first entry, the contender for the actual stock challenge!!

It's not the best turn rate ever but it's good enough for a first try.

K-71 Slinger

https://www./?opyt2rxclws4kp7

specs: 14.4t (at take off), 85 parts, dual turbojet

armament: 2 Vulcan, no missiles.

Just press spacebar to enable AI

Also can someone explain steer factor vs steer limiter please? And AOA % slider on control surfaces

Edited November 4, 2015 by RevanCorana

[E805BzRo]

So here is a video of a fight between two prop planes, made with KAX. My resumée: boring, doesn't add anything really new. Whats really nice, though, is the sound of the prop engines!

[E805BzRo]

Tried the meme fighter in a fresh installation once more. I used CKAN and picked BDA, FAR, DD, and VesselMover plus their dependencies. Physics delta was always at 0.03.

At 1920 with AA 4x and full textures and rendering, the meme fighter disassembled in 2 of 3 fights.

Worryingly, also the K-191 that I used as opponent broke apart once.

In my old install with trajectories, distantobj, Engineer, Cool rockets etc. and also with 1920 and quality as above, meme fighter broke in 1/3.

Still in the old install, it broke in 3/3 both with higher quality (everything full quality plus 8x AA) as well as lower (1280, quality to medium, AA 2x).

Concluding, my standard settings seem to be quite gentle; planes break more often with higher AND lower quality graphics and also if fewer mods are used. If I had the time I would do more systematical tests to figure out if FPS or number of mods is the decisive factor.

Edited November 4, 2015 by E805BzRo

[Van Disaster]

Well mods will make a difference - there could be something lurking in your full install that tweaks joint strength for one thing, which is why I make clean installs for challenges. Your bare bones version matches mine at least - I have the basic four, BetterBouyancy, HotRockets, SmokeScreen, EVE+TextureReplacer+bits you need for clouds, Scatterer ( that's the pretty atmosphere mod ) and some editor mods in my main contest install.

What'd be interesting is if you can make your fresh install gentle somehow - I suspect that might not happen though. The K-191 has broken up once unassisted in all the testing I've done, but I think practically everyone's has at some point...

I'll give our new entrant a once-over.

Edit: seems legal, the AI controller is under the panelling at the back if you want to set standby mode. Manages to fly after shedding bits on the initial pullout too!

Steer limiter just caps surface deflection I think. Steer Factor is a bit more complicated and I don't think it's been explained ever - I might end up looking at the source code to BDA to see if I can work it out. The nearest I've come is that it's a slider to go between lag ( minimum ) and lead pursuit, but setting it to really low values means the craft hardly turns at all, so it's a little more than that. Technically there's a setpoint for the AI controller behind & in front of the target & the slider mixes those, afaik.

You might want to set the FOV & Visual range to max in the weapon manager, it's in the recommended items list. Totally up to you, but it does give an advantage the radar is not omnidirectional,btw.

Hummingbird F3: slightly less charge of the light brigade at the cost of the missiles. Would like a seperate gun firing rate slider really.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Guest]

Ok thanks I'll be tweaking those and updating the craft soon.

Do missiles have any purpose really?

I mean they seem too easy to either evade or flare, ending up being dead weight

I tried to mount some sidewinger (and guns) pointing backward for firing on the 6' but the AI was so confused! Did'nt work out.

[Van Disaster]

Best thing is to watch videos of the old fights - I've definitely had missile kills. I pulled them off the Hummingbird because of the way I set all the controllers up, wasn't really any point in carrying them.

If you want to update the craft I'll put it on the bottom of the list - which means someone else has to run the next fight...

Note: I start the champion off the grass every fight - not sure if there's any advantage to starting on the runway, but that's how I've always done it.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Van Disaster

[Guest]

Yea I did watch a couple of them, your K191 is a born killer!

The turn rate + stability on aim + controlled stall which reduce speed while pitching increasing turn rate and overall very good at both low and high speeds.

I'm still trying to understand the AI pathfinding which seem weird/bugged sometimes. Like when trying to close on a target it sometimes put itself in front instead of behind or even run straight into it! lol

Also trying to make my design not wobble so that the AI can aim and shoot properly.

It seems the best design for this challenge is gonna be the most forgiving to piloting mistakes of the AI.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RevanCorana