Most Dangerous Spacecraft Fuel

[wumpus]

I followed some links on the crazier ideas and ran into a usenet* discussion of the "most mad science rocket fuel ever".  The idea was called O15.  The idea was to take the isotope O15 and form it into ozone (don't do this.  I'm sure this thread notes that concentrated O3 explodes on it's own).  Now O15 has a half-life of about 2 minutes, and then decays into N.  NO2 and O3 are hypergolic, so it reacts immediately.

It also turns out that any release from that reaction doesn't compare to the O15->N decay, so it is pretty moot.  Also nobody really explains where all the O15 comes from (of course, LH2 has similar issues and has to be topped off fast on the launchpad.  It just makes O15 that crazier since you can't use it for outer space burns.)

* and recalled at least two names from rec.arts.sf-lovers and comp.arch.

[Delta_8930]

On January 19, 2016 at 0:04 AM, fredinno said:

Not as dangerous as flourine. Also, what happened to your rocket trivia threads?

Haven't had the time to update them recently. They aren't dead, but I will get around to it once I have enough time (probably sometime in the next two weeks). 

[fredinno]

11 hours ago, wumpus said:

I followed some links on the crazier ideas and ran into a usenet* discussion of the "most mad science rocket fuel ever".  The idea was called O15.  The idea was to take the isotope O15 and form it into ozone (don't do this.  I'm sure this thread notes that concentrated O3 explodes on it's own).  Now O15 has a half-life of about 2 minutes, and then decays into N.  NO2 and O3 are hypergolic, so it reacts immediately.

It also turns out that any release from that reaction doesn't compare to the O15->N decay, so it is pretty moot.  Also nobody really explains where all the O15 comes from (of course, LH2 has similar issues and has to be topped off fast on the launchpad.  It just makes O15 that crazier since you can't use it for outer space burns.)

* and recalled at least two names from rec.arts.sf-lovers and comp.arch.

Doubt anyone would want to use radioactive oxygen. t would probably cause the rocket to explode from heating from decay inside the tank.

[wumpus]

10 hours ago, fredinno said:

Doubt anyone would want to use radioactive oxygen. t would probably cause the rocket to explode from heating from decay inside the tank.

Since the stuff is hypergolic with itself, the rocket is ignited the moment fueling starts.  Presumably the launch clamps have to hold it down until liftoff.  It should act more or less similar to a chemical rocket (the uncontrollable burn part, not so much the fuel it up part), but I don't think the radioactive emissions would work well with a bell nozzle.  It was not ever suggested as a real rocket fuel, more an answer to how you could get lots of crazy properties together in as few materials as possible.

On second thought, presumably radioactive heating would detonate the ozone (no mater what magical means otherwise preventing ozone self detonation), and it would be all over then.

[magnemoe]

Talking about radioactive fuel and danger would be boring without bringing up the nuclear salt water engine

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#nswr
Its an continuous trust version of the orion nuclear puls engine. It get far higher IPS and TWR by sacrificing much of the orions safe conservative design and its environmental friendliness

Most fun part unlike nuclear bombs who are pretty harmless unless triggered or someone drop on on your head the fuel of the NSWR has to be stored in long thin pipes seperated from each others. An leak and you risk an runaway nuclear chain reaction inside the ship, again the benefit is that this would not last long
Astronaut recruitment center will only accept pilots for this project who has maximum of both stupidity and courage and is badass. 

 

[shynung]

I've read somewhere in the 'net that there are people who question the chances of a ship fitted with an NSWR drive to survive turning it on.

That said, in addition to all that I_sp and TWR, a nuclear salt-water rocket is dead simple. No fussy reactors, just a propellant valve. Works just like a hypergolic, at least in theory.

Edited January 22, 2016 by shynung

[fredinno]

6 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Astronaut recruitment center will only accept pilots for this project who has maximum of both stupidity and courage and is badass. 

 

6 hours ago, magnemoe said:

stupidity and courage

 

6 hours ago, magnemoe said:

stupidity

[Temstar]

NSWR also has the advantage that since its propellant is water, it could be fairly easily refueled since water ice is everywhere in the solar system.

That is, of course, assuming you have spare stashes of weapons grade U-235 salt on board as well as a mixing machine.

[DerekL1963]

14 hours ago, Temstar said:

NSWR also has the advantage that since its propellant is water, it could be fairly easily refueled since water ice is everywhere in the solar system.

That is, of course, assuming you have spare stashes of weapons grade U-235 salt on board as well as a mixing machine.

 

That is, assuming that a NSWR rocket even works in the first place.  Zubrin's paper on it is different from a bar napkin calculation only in that it's written up as a paper.   It's never been the subject of anything but the most simplistic and handwaving of analyses.

 

 

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, DerekL1963 said:

 

That is, assuming that a NSWR rocket even works in the first place.  Zubrin's paper on it is different from a bar napkin calculation only in that it's written up as a paper.   It's never been the subject of anything but the most simplistic and handwaving of analyses.

For good reasons as it lack the orions safe conservative design and its environmental friendliness.
 

[fredinno]

52 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

For good reasons as it lack the orions safe conservative design and its environmental friendliness.
 

Orion drives are not environmentally friendly.

[KSK]

I think we're losing some humour in translation here, folks.

 

[A35K]

Well, I'm just going to invent the most dangerous rocket fuel:

Chlorine-trifluoride as oxidizer, methylmercury as main fuel, then, because this is not enough, the whole thing will be powered by a gas core fission reactor using Thorium Tertafluride (which is directly injected into exhaust), and why not add some anti hydrogen in there as well (don't ask how it got there, just accept it). At this point we might as well add a Tsar Bomba 100 megaton hydrogen warhead as the payload...

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Orion drives are not environmentally friendly.

Compared to nuclear saltwater it is.
Also the most dangerous fuel as leaks can give you an critical nuclear reaction inside the ship instead of in the engine. 
You might also get it if the uranium salt deposit. 

Control of engine will be challenging too

[fredinno]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Compared to nuclear saltwater it is.
Also the most dangerous fuel as leaks can give you an critical nuclear reaction inside the ship instead of in the engine. 
You might also get it if the uranium salt deposit. 

Control of engine will be challenging too

I'm surprised it was proposed by Robert Zubrin and not Jedediah Kerman...

[DerekL1963]

34 minutes ago, fredinno said:

I'm surprised it was proposed by Robert Zubrin and not Jedediah Kerman...

 

I'm not.   Robert Zubrin has always been...  hazy about the difference between theoretical concepts, laboratory scale proofs of concept, prototypes, and developed flight hardware.   Much (most) of what he treats as the last is actually one of the other three.

[Temstar]

Robert Zubrin is not exactly the most level headed person around. He's like an Elon Musk minus the money.

And I still suspect Elon Musk could be a supervillain in disguise.

[KerBlammo]

3 minutes ago, Temstar said:

And I still suspect Elon Musk could be a supervillain in disguise.

In disguise?

 

[Temstar]

Say if you're the president and Elon Musk finishes his BFR or MCT or whatever the big rocket is going to be called. Then he comes to you and say "before we send the colonist can I have some hydrogen bombs to drop on the Martian poles to thicken and warm up the atmosphere".

What would you say?

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, Temstar said:

Say if you're the president and Elon Musk finishes his BFR or MCT or whatever the big rocket is going to be called. Then he comes to you and say "before we send the colonist can I have some hydrogen bombs to drop on the Martian poles to thicken and warm up the atmosphere".

What would you say?

No, I don't trust Elon with nukes, TBH.

[KSK]

4 hours ago, Temstar said:

Robert Zubrin is not exactly the most level headed person around. He's like an Elon Musk minus the money.

And I still suspect Elon Musk could be a supervillain in disguise.

Don't know about Musk personally but his company sure contains a lot of very level-headed types. Musk does seem to be rather optimistic about timescales but a lot of what he's talked about has eventually flown. Definitely a supervillain though - or perhaps the cliched front-man supervillain to distract attention from the real villain behind the scenes...