KSP LF+O is LH2+LOX (also other things about the update)

[legoclone09]

In the new update, the small ore converter's description says this.

Hydrogen and Oxygen. It has been confirmed now that is the fuel!

Also the MK-55 Thud has been redone, now looks AWESOME!

I made a ship with only new/redone pieces. It is obviously useful.

Edited November 9, 2015 by legoclone09

[NecroBones]

Technically it could be any hydrocarbon, since they also contain Hydrogen.

[Guest]

Technically it could be any hydrocarbon, since they also contain Hydrogen.

Well, it certainly can't be LOX or LHyd because the densities are exactly the same. Plus, they're both infinitely storable and have the hsp and isp characteristics of Aerozine50 and dinitrogen tetroxide. KSP's LFO+O is a super-fuel that doesn't exist. Edited November 9, 2015 by regex

[juanml82]

Well, it certainly can't be LOX or LHyd because the densities are quite close. Plus, they're both infinitely storable and have the hsp and isp characteristics of Aerozine50 and dinitrogen tetroxide. KSP's LFO+O is a super-fuel that doesn't exist.

Right, but from an immersion standpoint, it's easier to say "ore=ice" because most people don't know the intricacies of all possible rocket fuels but may think "ore=magical rock" unless it says, somewhere, "Hey, water!"

This, however, brings the question "Are Duna's polar caps ore rich?" Because I think they aren't particularly rich, and with that description, they should be.

[Guest]

Right, but from an immersion standpoint, it's easier to say "ore=ice"

What? I'd imagine it would have been called "ice" if it was ice. That's like wanting to call Monopropellant "OrangeJuice".

because most people don't know the intricacies of all possible rocket fuels but may think "ore=magical rock" unless it says, somewhere, "Hey, water!"

It could have said something like "trace amounts of ethanes" or whatever and made much more sense. E: Plus, you get the benefit of getting people interested in what rocket fuels are actually made of. LOX/LHyd are far from the only things the human race has used to put things into space.

[EladDv]

orange juice used as monoprop? color me intrigued (and orange- it spilled)

[juanml82]

What? I'd imagine it would have been called "ice" if it was ice. That's like wanting to call Monopropellant "OrangeJuice".

Ice is the easiest material. What's telling you is that it can make fuel out of anything that contains hydrogen and oxygen. So players can pretend Moho' surface has scattered minerals with some hydrogen in them and others with some oxygen in them and it doesn't break immersion, even if it's not scientifically accurate.

[Guest]

scientifically accurate.

Something that's sorely missing from KSP.

[Michaelo90]

The big converter has the same text, it's not new.

[RocketBlam]

Something that's sorely missing from KSP.

Oh come on, it's a game.

[klgraham1013]

Oh come on, it's a game.

This is never a good defense. "Game" is much to broad a term these days.

[RocketBlam]

This is never a good defense. "Game" is much to broad a term these days.

Yes, it's a broad term, which means a lot of different things can be considered a game, and there are a lot of ways to use physics and science in a game. Some people, including apparently you, want a game where every minute detail of scientific truth is modeled. I don't want that game, and I don't think most people do. I think KSP is a great balance between somewhat realistic physics and a fun game.

This game is not a science simulator, it isn't a NASA flight simulator either. I, however, have learned a huge amount about orbital mechanics and launch technology from it, and had fun doing so.

[Guest]

Some people, including apparently you, want a game where every minute detail of scientific truth is modeled.

This is an amazingly par-for-the-course example of reductio ad absurdum. Thank you for this useful contribution to the discussion.

[Kaos]

This description only tells, that Hydrogen is somehow used in the fuel, but not that it is pure Hydrogen. It could still be Methane, Hydrogen sulfide or something else. But I doubt, that LF is precisely modeled after some real fuel.

[klgraham1013]

Some people, including apparently you, want a game where every minute detail of scientific truth is modeled.

Why does the internet insist on extremes? That is not what I am saying, or have said.

[legoclone09]

This discussion is not about realism, it is about what they are talking about with Hydrogen and Oxygen.

[MAFman]

I've always thought LF and Ox are Kerosene and Liquid Oxygen, or Nitric Acid and Furfuryl alcohol or something...

Technically it could be any hydrocarbon, since they also contain Hydrogen.

[NathanKell]

As has been stated quite a few times, the Isp stats, and the specific heats, are reflective of NTO and Aerozine 50. The densities are not, but they're grandfathered in.

[MAFman]

I see. That mix is also hypergolic, isn't it? How would I standardize things based on that assumption?[quote name='NathanKell']As has been stated quite a few times, the Isp stats, and the specific heats, are reflective of NTO and Aerozine 50. The densities are not, but they're grandfathered in.[/QUOTE]

[NathanKell]

Well, if you wanted to make the densities match up, you'd change the density of Oxidizer to 0.00725 and the density of LiquidFuel to 0.0045 and then make all tanks hold only 85.1064% each of the LF and OX they currently do. That would standardize on 5 liters per unit of LF and Ox, and keep total wet:dry ratios (and total wet masses) the same as they used to be.

And yes, it is hypergolic and storable, which would explain why reignitons aren't a big deal and why nothing boils off.

Note that, interestingly enough, a volume ratio of 55:45 does actually lead to a correct mass mixture ratio for NTO/Aerozine (with the above densities)!

[MAFman]

COOL!!! :D What would an example ModuleManager config look like for that, say for the Oscar-B?[quote name='NathanKell']Well, if you wanted to make the densities match up, you'd change the density of Oxidizer to 0.00725 and the density of LiquidFuel to 0.0045 and then make all tanks hold only 85.1064% each of the LF and OX they currently do. That would standardize on 5 liters per unit of LF and Ox, and keep total wet:dry ratios (and total wet masses) the same as they used to be.

And yes, it is hypergolic and storable, which would explain why reignitons aren't a big deal and why nothing boils off.

Note that, interestingly enough, a volume ratio of 55:45 does actually lead to a correct mass mixture ratio for NTO/Aerozine (with the above densities)![/QUOTE]

[COLOR="silver"][SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE][/COLOR]

Also, what the heck are MonoPropellant and SolidFuel? I have always thought MonoPropellant is something like either HTP (High Test Peroxide) or Hydrazine, and SolidFuel is either APCP or rocket candy (60/40 mix of sugar and potassium perchlorate).

[MAFman]

So what are MonoProp, SolidFuel, and XenonGas analogues for? Also, isn't XenonGas IRL not really used due to its extreme expense - instead substituting Argon?

[NathanKell]

I don't know much about ions, tbh, better ask someone better informed. :)
Monoprop is presumably hydrazine. IIRC that's what I based its specific heat off.
SolidFuel is going to be something like HTPB as binder, probably.

[juanml82]

[quote name='NathanKell']Well, if you wanted to make the densities match up, you'd change the density of Oxidizer to 0.00725 and the density of LiquidFuel to 0.0045 and then make all tanks hold only 85.1064% each of the LF and OX they currently do. That would standardize on 5 liters per unit of LF and Ox, and keep total wet:dry ratios (and total wet masses) the same as they used to be.

And yes, it is hypergolic and storable, which would explain why reignitons aren't a big deal and why nothing boils off.

Note that, interestingly enough, a volume ratio of 55:45 does actually lead to a correct mass mixture ratio for NTO/Aerozine (with the above densities)![/QUOTE]

If there is a mod/module manage patch that changes the generic stock fuels to that and I add it in the middle of a career game, it would screw up the dV and weight of all my ships, right?

[legoclone09]

Not really, you would get MORE Δv because of more fuel, but the TWR of landers might be messed up. I might make a mod to do this after finishing up the update to my current mod, Tantares Fairings Extension.