clearly separate milestones and contracts? unite "world firsts" and milestones?

[Kergarin]

Hello,

I've played the game for a long time, and I really love it. Thanks for that!
I have installed 1.0.5 and started a new career.

The new milestones are nice, but:
-the litte 2 lines in the milestones message, doesn't give you the feeling, that you have achieved a milestone.
-deleting the message deletes all milestones
-if you don't delete it, it's hard to have an overview in this litte Window
-you can't see, what milestones exist
-Milestones don't just overlap with "world firsts records" contracts. to me they are the same.
-world firsts records give you the feeling, that milestones should give you.
-but it's hard to get all world first records. If you do to much at once, you break the order and will never see some of them. And it's very frustrating, if you don't get historical contracts like land on mun.
-getting rewards for world firsts and milestones at the same time, makes the game way to easy. You just get to much rewards.




So I have a suggestion, which would make the contract system more clear, less frustrating for beginners, and more flexible for pros:

A clear separation of milestones and contracts. And the uniting of milestones and world's first.

On one side you will have the Milestones:
they are the big steps in your space Programm, like launching first vessel, landing on mun etc.
And so they should be displayed and listed like big steps.
They are the progress of your space program.

On the other side you will have contracts:
Doing things for other organizations, to get some extra money / fun / challenges.
The contract system should stay like it is, but without the world fists contracts. It should really just be contracts, and nothing that overlaps with milestones.




In detail I would do it like this:
-In mission control, there are two main tabs: milestones and contracts.
-contracts stays like it's now ( available, active, archives)
-milestones has just an "open" and "achives" tab
-in the "open" tab (name may be changed) you see all existing milestones, that you haven't achieved jet.
-the "open" milestones should be listed in an order that makes sense (launch first vessel, achieve heigt of x, escape atmosphere, ..... Land on mun , and so on)
-this order does give the beginner something like a red line to follow (most of my friends, lose the interest for the game, because they don't clearly see, what would make sense to do next)
-but this order does just exist in the list, you can achive any milestone at any time in any order, just like it is now. So experienced players can do wat ever they want.
-milestones should be displayed more like the world firsts, just to make them feel more like milestones
-all world firsts contracts should be transferred to milestones and should be deleted under the contracts.

I know the "open" list will be long, but a using a good order, will make it easy to use. (or maybe with filters, like in the science archives)



So what you will get is:
-a clear red line for beginners, what they could do next
-an untouched flexibility of what you really do next
-a clear overview of what you have achieved and what you can achive
-a clear and realistic separation of:
A: your space program progress (milestones, financed by the government)
B: contracts (doing things for other companies, to boost your space program)
-Less frustration, because nobody will ever miss a world firsts contract (because they are all milestones now)



It's just my idea, but I think it would make the game more accessible and playable.

Kindly
Kergarin

[BlkBltChemie]

Good thoughts here Kergarin. I have to say I really like the new milestones system especially the breadth of opportunities; I'm always disappointed when I miss a World's First contract. It also really gives more flexibility to your space program and returns to the sandbox feel of KSP which is why I got into it in the first place - every save can be whatever you want. Overall I agree and would like to see the World's First contracts merged into milestones; however, the milestones should absolutely be more visible as suggested here and in a couple other threads.

It makes me think back to when the World's Firsts contracts were first introduced alongside the "Explore" contracts. So, for example, you could have the 4-part "Explore the Mun" contract and alongside you get a series of World's Firsts to flyby, orbit, return, land, etc. It felt really redundant to me because you were essentially getting paid twice, which is very similar to the milestones and World's Firsts now. (Side note: Are the "Explore" contracts still in 1.0.5? I haven't upgraded my career save.)

Now that I think about it more, however, the World's First contracts do give more of a targeted progression while milestones are more in the background (currently). Standard contracts are generally stand-alone (this is less of the case now with contextual contracts), but the World's First give more long term objectives to guide the player. Maybe an expanded version of the "Explore" contract with all of the corresponding milestones grouped together...hmm this almost sounds like a 180 from what I said in the first paragraph. (Maybe just having the milestones more visible will satisfy this role of long-term progress.)

[Alshain]

Some milestones should remain hidden. They should be shown in the list but, marked with "?????" or something similar (kind of like achievements on Steam)

[Kergarin]

Nice to hear, that you agree!

Yes, the explore contracts still exist.
That means we have got 3 very similar and overlapping things.

-I still think we should only keep the milestones. discarding world firsts and explore contracts
-I think milestones should be more in the style of the world firsts, but separated from contracts, in their own list
-maybe they could be "grouped" like the "explore" contracts?
-listed in an order that makes sense to play

I think consolidating this things and build a clear line to follow (only if you want) , is very important, to make the game more accessible for new players.

And it will make the game less frustrating for experienced players, who want to go for all achievements.
They won't miss one of them and will have a better overview.

[Alshain]

They didn't want to remove the "Explore" contracts because they were afraid that would remove "direction". So you have a conflict between the people who need the game to tell them what to do and the people who don't want the game to tell them what to do.

The big problem is, those Explore contracts don't show up in a logical order. You get Explore the Mun, followed by Explore Duna, skipping Minmus entirely and ignoring the fact that Moho's and Jool's best launch windows come first then sometime after that you won't get Moho or Jool because you've already been there but you might get Dres or Eeloo which nobody wants. I think Eve still shows up at about the right time.

It's just nonsensical. But yes I agree, this area still needs some work. The Worlds First automatic thing was a good start but it's still just not enough. It's going to take a bigger overhaul than what they wanted to put into it. Edited November 24, 2015 by Alshain

[Kergarin]

That's why I think the milestones should point you a "direction".

The milestones should be shown in a list with an logical order, which players can take as direction.
But this should just be a listing, you should still be able to achive anyone of them at any time in any order.

So you will not have a conflict between people who need direction and those who don't.


One if the main reasons, why I started this, is that you can easily "break" the order of the world firsts, which means you will NEVER see some of them.
Going to the mun to early or (accidentally) leaving kerbins soi, kills contracts like "land on mun" for ever. What is really sad.

[Alshain]

[quote name='Kergarin']That's why I think the milestones should point you a "direction".

The milestones should be shown in a list with an logical order, which players can take as direction.
But this should just be a listing, you should still be able to achive anyone of them at any time in any order.

So you will not have a conflict between people who need direction and those who don't.


One if the main reasons, why I started this, is that you can easily "break" the order of the world firsts, which means you will NEVER see some of them.
Going to the mun to early or (accidentally) leaving kerbins soi, kills contracts like "land on mun" for ever. What is really sad.[/QUOTE]

Oh and I agree, but what I was saying is some milestones are for Easter Eggs, those should appear in the list but be non-descriptive. This is more for new players, most of us here know them already, but it shouldn't be obvious for those what you have to do to complete them. They should still appear in the list though. Edited November 24, 2015 by Alshain

[Kergarin]

Yes, now I understand and agree with you.
Eastereggs without description are a good idea, maybe it should just be shown on which planet they are, but not what and where exactly they are.
The usual ones like land here, orbit there, etc should always be fully described.

[Red Cloud]

I like the milestones, but as I suggested elsewhere I think they could make something more out of the mission control.

So, first orbital flight it should cut to mission control cheering (perhaps better after you land & recover the crew?). Given how cute the kerbals are, it's a shame they don't do something with this.

They could do the same for the first Mun landing given how important it was in human history & space travel (in theory once on the landing, and once on the return from the Mun). Perhaps the same for subsequent successful major firsts (like first return journey to Minmus).

[Kergarin]

From the devnote Tuesday: 

" The contracts system is definitely Brian’s (Arsonide) area of expertise, and it’s an area of the game that is under constant development. For update 1.1 the single objective World’s First contracts will be merged into the Explore contract line. Note that this does not include the automatic milestones, just the contracts. There was some overlap between these two contract types, and the Explore contracts would pick a celestial body at random. This led to many situations in which the Explore contracts would get ‘skipped’: the player would for example land on Mun before they had accepted the Explore contract for Mun, which would then never show up." 

Sounds like a good step. Looking forward for 1.1!

Thank you devteam!