Is this alternate solar system possible?

[fredinno]

14 minutes ago, silversliver said:

I made some climate simulation for Venus.

Basically I reduced it's atmosphere to 10 times less than earth(5.1 x 10¹⁸ kg =>5.1 x 10¹⁷  kg) and this accordingly reduced pressure to 0.0963 atm (a little less than Earth/10).

Problem is that humans can't tolerate pressures so low, and I don't know about other life forms.

So the only way to have an habitable atmosphere is to increase pressure to around 0.2 atm that would be barely survivable for humans.

But this in turn would make the surface temperature to rise from 63,5° to around 74-75°.

In the first case you can have lot of water, except on equatorial zones, in the second case you can have small "seas" or very large lakes like the Black Sea OTL. 

There are supposed to be literally almost no water- the largest water bodies being large lakes.

1 minute ago, waterlubber said:

Why not replace the Moon with a trojan moon? It may be fairly easy to access if the orbits are right.

No, since having a Moon is required for the purposes ChrisSpace wants.

[ChrisSpace]

1. So, you're point? 

2. No. Having less water volume would certainly help (along with the fact Venus already is very flat, and would have shallow oceans) but the study that came up with the numbers I gave you showing the possibility of habitable desert planets used a planet with literally no water, aside from in the deepest valleys and oasises (a true desert). I would make Venus like that- leaving a stark contrast between wet and dry in habitable planets in the solar system. There needs to be a little bit of water, though, to wash away CO2.

3. Minerva does not really need one anyways- it can produce a magnetic field on its own.

4. Ok. I still do not get why you are so much against binary systems, though.

5. No, but I think it would be better to keep things simple- the Sun would have to be created from different nebulae dust then, and would have a different location in the galaxy. And I was thinking the same for Laythe in this version, in terms of land coverage, but I would think that the moon would have gravitational locking to Jupiter (like all of its major moons IRL), and so the land would all be in a thin strip around the equator.

6. Not really, in terms of KSP, but you might want to add an extra biome "In Vulcan's tail." 

1. To get a general view of how things should be, your method works. But to find out exactly what things can be like, I think mine is better. I think.

2. But... I was planning to have Venus as a tropical rainforesty planet, so are you saying that can't happen?

4. Because there is no realistic way to have them in KSP, and one of my side projects is to make this system in KSP and in Space Engine.

5. How does being tidally locked put the land around the equator?

6. An interesting idea.

One last thing- about the diseases weakening the Martians, it would make more sense if the diseases were GMO

This is one of the few 'suspensions of disbelief' i'm having. I know that in reality this wouldn't happen, but when you look at the yet-to-be-revealed storyline it makes much more sense.

and they produce a cure/vaccine relatively quickly following the initial die off.

I imagined the native Martians/Venusians to be similar in technology to Native Americans or Aboriginal Australians. So unless by 'they' you mean humans, I doubt they'd be able to develop a vaccine.

Minevera not having a large moon would mean its axis would shift quite a bit over time. Not good for my version, since I want Minevera to stay on its 0 Degrees Axis. Also, it will likely have to be a little bigger, to generate more heat.

Is 5-10 Earth masses big enough (I haven't decided on an exact number yet)?

[KAL 9000]

What about the gas giants besides Jupiter? Are they different from OTL/IRL? Also, can we just get to this story? I can't actually wait any longer!

[fredinno]

9 minutes ago, KAL 9000 said:

What about the gas giants besides Jupiter? Are they different from OTL/IRL? Also, can we just get to this story? I can't actually wait any longer!

Wait. Please we still have not finished the inner system, or Jupiter.

[Findthepin1]

What's Venus' atmospheric composition? It matters if we're to simulate its climate. 

[fredinno]

33 minutes ago, Findthepin1 said:

What's Venus' atmospheric composition? It matters if we're to simulate its climate. 

N2, O2, like Earth, but much less H2O. CO2 is Earth-like, maybe a little higher, 1% Argon/Noble Gases.

Edited December 17, 2015 by fredinno

[ChrisSpace]

51 minutes ago, KAL 9000 said:

Also, can we just get to this story? I can't actually wait any longer!

Unfortunately you'll have to for the time being. In any case I'm not even sure I can talk about the story on the forum, because politics.

27 minutes ago, Findthepin1 said:

What's Venus' atmospheric composition? It matters if we're to simulate its climate.

Breathable. Anything else I'll let the others decide on.

[fredinno]

14 hours ago, ChrisSpace said:

Unfortunately you'll have to for the time being. In any case I'm not even sure I can talk about the story on the forum, because politics.

Breathable. Anything else I'll let the others decide on.

Did you look at my other comments regarding this system before your previous post? Thank you, if you have.

[fredinno]

On December 16, 2015 at 4:19:40 PM, ChrisSpace said:

 

 

1. To get a general view of how things should be, your method works. But to find out exactly what things can be like, I think mine is better. I think.

2. But... I was planning to have Venus as a tropical rainforesty planet, so are you saying that can't happen?

4. Because there is no realistic way to have them in KSP, and one of my side projects is to make this system in KSP and in Space Engine.

5. How does being tidally locked put the land around the equator?

6. An interesting idea.

 

 

This is one of the few 'suspensions of disbelief' i'm having. I know that in reality this wouldn't happen, but when you look at the yet-to-be-revealed storyline it makes much more sense.

 

 

I imagined the native Martians/Venusians to be similar in technology to Native Americans or Aboriginal Australians. So unless by 'they' you mean humans, I doubt they'd be able to develop a vaccine.

 

 

Is 5-10 Earth masses big enough (I haven't decided on an exact number yet)?

I didn't notice this quote area until now

"1. To get a general view of how things should be, your method works. But to find out exactly what things can be like, I think mine is better. I think."

It's less scientifically accurate though, in my opinion.

 

"2. But... I was planning to have Venus as a tropical rainforesty planet, so are you saying that can't happen?"

No, not as the 3rd planet. As the 4th planet, yes- Earth already takes the spot for the inner (usual) habitable zone.  Venus would then be a super-Earth, with 3x-5x Earth mass (or something along those lines)

 

"4. Because there is no realistic way to have them in KSP, and one of my side projects is to make this system in KSP and in Space Engine."

Putting them around a tiny barycentral object in the center of the system is close enough, really. KSP was never realistic in the first place.

 

"5. How does being tidally locked put the land around the equator?"

I already explained this earlier, but when the spinning of the moon stops, the water and air gets pushed up to the poles, as the spinning of the planet is what causes the air and water to be pushed to the equator via centrifugal force. The land is ALL uninhabitable, due to the atmosphere leaving the equatoral altitudes. Slightly higher up is fine (Laythe still rotates a bit, as it faces Jupiter) but there is no land there.

 

"Is 5-10 Earth masses big enough (I haven't decided on an exact number yet)?"

10 Earth masses is literally the highest number of Earths for a terrestrial planet. So, yes, 5-10 is enough. I would choose 7-8 Earth Masses, if I were you.

 

"I imagined the native Martians/Venusians to be similar in technology to Native Americans or Aboriginal Australians. So unless by 'they' you mean humans, I doubt they'd be able to develop a vaccine."

If you read my Solar System version, Mars' intelligent life was imagined like this:

Mars' intelligent life is primarily composed of a post-industrial “utopian” civilization, where a small population live peacefully in the countryside, with automated factories producing most products with very high efficiency. Most of their time is spent either in the virtual realm, and as the world is bound under a Socialist policy, with everything people need under their fingertips for free. Much of the military technology has been lost, however, and as the completion for status in the virtual realm is the most important (along with an abundance of resources), wars have largely ceased. However, they are still capable of restarting their war technology production, with such blueprints and information required having been cataloged for many centuries. A war may only wake up a sleeping dragon.[0.4 G] PLANET (1°) {1.3 AU}

Also:

One last thing- about the diseases weakening the Maritans, it would make more sense if the diseases were GMO, or if it is thought Maritans clonized Earth, before turning inward, and becoming the society I mentioned in my previous post. Technologies were lost, as the colonists lost connections with the Maritans, and as they lost support,  and as an ice age approached, the colonists were forced to concentrate more on survival. After the ice age, all the technology brought over is lost, or at least the archived information is impossible to read, due to being impossible to translate. That way, the Maritians may be suspect able to diseases from Earth, if the diseases themselves were adapted to the descendants of Martians. 

 

Also, it is best to weaken the Maritans, not destroy them, so they can still pose a significant risk to Earthlings (for storyline purposes) and they produce a cure/vaccine relatively quickly following the initial die off.

 

This was to generate a conflict in the story.

 

"This is one of the few 'suspensions of disbelief' i'm having. I know that in reality this wouldn't happen, but when you look at the yet-to-be-revealed storyline it makes much more sense."

It doesn't make too much sense- unless they were all actually humans from a long-destroyed civilization. The origin of it was from Mars, and it's post-industrial society is the remains of a civilization that colonized the inner solar system. They would still be susectable to Earth diseases, as they are all similar species.

 

Edited December 19, 2015 by fredinno

[fredinno]

Bump. ChrisSpace or Silver, please notice this.

[Findthepin1]

Patience you must have

[fredinno]

lol, Yoda reference.

[ChrisSpace]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 6:09 AM, fredinno said:

It's less scientifically accurate though, in my opinion.

So it's less scientifically accurate to actually look at the planets individually? Is that what you're saying?

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 6:09 AM, fredinno said:

No, not as the 3rd planet.

After a bit of thinking, I think I can work with a desert Venus.

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 6:09 AM, fredinno said:

I already explained this earlier, but when the spinning of the moon stops, the water and air gets pushed up to the poles, as the spinning of the planet is what causes the air and water to be pushed to the equator via centrifugal force. The land is ALL uninhabitable, due to the atmosphere leaving the equatoral altitudes. Slightly higher up is fine (Laythe still rotates a bit, as it faces Jupiter) but there is no land there.

Oh, yes, I remember this from a documentary I watched about if the Earth stopped spinning. The thing is, eventually the land would even out just like the air and water did. So unless the tidal locking was quite recent, I think the landmasses would look normaller.

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 6:09 AM, fredinno said:

I would choose 7-8 Earth Masses, if I were you.

Good, I was thinking something like that.

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 6:09 AM, fredinno said:

It doesn't make too much sense- unless they were all actually humans from a long-destroyed civilization.

Well, hence the suspension of disbelief.

[fredinno]

19 minutes ago, ChrisSpace said:

Oh, yes, I remember this from a documentary I watched about if the Earth stopped spinning. The thing is, eventually the land would even out just like the air and water did. So unless the tidal locking was quite recent, I think the landmasses would look normaller.

No, read this:http://io9.gizmodo.com/5946262/this-is-what-the-worlds-oceans-would-look-like-if-the-earth-didnt-spin?trending_test_five_a&utm_expid=66866090-76.Xf7HV5ZSS3i8CtAkjmzQiA.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca

 

What do you think about my version of Martian civilisation though? Is it incompatible with what you're thinking about?

I would like to have a small baseline on what the story is like, what the conflict is, etc, so I can make the remaining planets easier.

Edited December 20, 2015 by fredinno

[ChrisSpace]

3 hours ago, fredinno said:

No, read this:

I have, but it doesn't say anything I didn't already know. Eventually the landmasses would even out just like the air and water did. This might take a while, though.

3 hours ago, fredinno said:

I would like to have a small baseline on what the story is like, what the conflict is, etc, so I can make the remaining planets easier.

I'm afraid to say much about the storyline because of the forum's 'no political talk' rule.

3 hours ago, fredinno said:

What do you think about my version of Martian civilisation though? Is it incompatible with what you're thinking about?

Unfortunately, yes. We're not talking about a rival species with the ability to create a 'virtual realm', more like the Ewoks (I think that's what they're called) from Star Wars VI.

[fredinno]

30 minutes ago, ChrisSpace said:

I have, but it doesn't say anything I didn't already know. Eventually the landmasses would even out just like the air and water did. This might take a while, though.

I'm afraid to say much about the storyline because of the forum's 'no political talk' rule.

Unfortunately, yes. We're not talking about a rival species with the ability to create a 'virtual realm', more like the Ewoks (I think that's what they're called) from Star Wars VI.

The website didn't say anything about the water, air and landmasses evening out. Look at a map of Titan (all of it) made by Cassini.https://www.google.ca/search?q=Titan+map&prmd=imvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1qMG21enJAhVK1mMKHd0kBy4Q_AUIBygB#imgrc=RX5W4z_z7C7BQM%3A

 

The top map  is full of graphical glitches, and is hard to tell anything from, due to being pieced together from numerous flybys, but the 2nd map shows that the land is of higher elevation in the equator. The Wikipedia article on Titan's seas also states that they are clustered towards the poles. The lack of spin pushes fluids to the poles, while the land is elevated by Saturn's gravity on the tidally locked moon.

Why would it violate the no political talks rule? Can't you give a basic summary for me to work off of?

 

Also, I still think it would make more sense if all the species were actually from a long-lost human civilization that collapsed many millennia before-kind of like Atlantis.

[insert_name]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Also, I still think it would make more sense if all the species were actually from a long-lost human civilization that collapsed many millennia before-kind of like Atlantis.

maybe they also had genetic engineering and used it to tweak their genomes before said collapse, so they could survive on said planet

[fredinno]

51 minutes ago, insert_name said:

maybe they also had genetic engineering and used it to tweak their genomes before said collapse, so they could survive on said planet

Good idea. Now to wait for ChrisSpace to aproove...

[ChrisSpace]

18 hours ago, fredinno said:

The top map  is full of graphical glitches, and is hard to tell anything from, due to being pieced together from numerous flybys, but the 2nd map shows that the land is of higher elevation in the equator. The Wikipedia article on Titan's seas also states that they are clustered towards the poles. The lack of spin pushes fluids to the poles, while the land is elevated by Saturn's gravity on the tidally locked moon.

Sure, sure, if Titan has this feature I suppose Laythe can have I as well.

18 hours ago, fredinno said:

Why would it violate the no political talks rule? Can't you give a basic summary for me to work off of?

Because it's an alternate history project. I'm thinking of a way the story can be discussed somewhere outside the forums.

17 hours ago, insert_name said:

18 hours ago, fredinno said:

Also, I still think it would make more sense if all the species were actually from a long-lost human civilization that collapsed many millennia before-kind of like Atlantis.

maybe they also had genetic engineering and used it to tweak their genomes before said collapse, so they could survive on said planet

I really wish I could use this, but I simply can't because the natives on Venus, Earth and Minerva are so different from one another.

[fredinno]

3 minutes ago, ChrisSpace said:

Sure, sure, if Titan has this feature I suppose Laythe can have I as well.

Because it's an alternate history project. I'm thinking of a way the story can be discussed somewhere outside the forums.

I really wish I could use this, but I simply can't because the natives on Venus, Earth and Minerva are so different from one another.

Here's an alternate history forum you can post on: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=16

I was going to post my alternate histories on here, myself, so I already have an account here.

You should update the this the two threads to link to each other once the alt. history thread gets going (and can you link the alternate history thread to me, too? Thanks.)

 

"I really wish I could use this, but I simply can't because the natives on Venus, Earth and Minerva are so different from one another."

I'm saddened too, since it would have been pretty darn interesting. I was even planning to add "monoliths" -archives of long-lost information in super-sturdy underground "libraries" containing important archived information in a quantum (or other exotic computer) bank- sort of like how we make seed banks.

 

It only makes me more interested on what in the world the storyline could possibly be like.

[ChrisSpace]

23 hours ago, fredinno said:

Here's an alternate history forum you can post on: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=16

I was going to post my alternate histories on here, myself, so I already have an account here.

You should update the this the two threads to link to each other once the alt. history thread gets going (and can you link the alternate history thread to me, too? Thanks.)

I'll set up an account there soon-ish.

23 hours ago, fredinno said:

It only makes me more interested on what in the world the storyline could possibly be like.

Well, I can so far say that the story will plagi- I mean, will be heavily be inspired by films such as Iron Sky, Avatar and Star Wars.

[fredinno]

4 hours ago, ChrisSpace said:

I'll set up an account there soon-ish.

Well, I can so far say that the story will plagi- I mean, will be heavily be inspired by films such as Iron Sky, Avatar and Star Wars.

Don't make it too similar. I'm archiving my old "long-lost civilization for future use" and integrating that in the my next Alternate Solar System Version.

So don't make a story thread yet- I'm getting the outer planets ready quickly (+Europa, Castillo, and Ganymede).

[ChrisSpace]

Wait, I think I have a solution for Aurora! Instead of having it as an outer moon, why not put it in a stable orbit closer in than Luna? I remember reading somewhere that there's a satellite which will stay in orbit for another 8.4 million years before deorbiting, so could a similar orbit work for Aurora?

Also a question about Venus: As a desert planet, is there any way the planet could obtain large oil reserves? (yes, yes I am doing that)

[fredinno]

6 hours ago, ChrisSpace said:

Wait, I think I have a solution for Aurora! Instead of having it as an outer moon, why not put it in a stable orbit closer in than Luna? I remember reading somewhere that there's a satellite which will stay in orbit for another 8.4 million years before deorbiting, so could a similar orbit work for Aurora?

Also a question about Venus: As a desert planet, is there any way the planet could obtain large oil reserves? (yes, yes I am doing that)

Maybe- only problem is that something like that will still not be stable for geological timescales.

It seems to be possible that it'd exist in much longer geological timescales though (this is, however, a much larger 2nd moon, and is not in a binary system): http://www.universetoday.com/92148/what-if-the-earth-had-two-moons/

 

However, the Earth-Luna system itself is already unstable. It should firstly be more spread apart http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/68476/what-if-the-moon-was-100x-more-massive-binary-planets

to make Luna stable. Then place a Aurora within an inclined orbit that is somewhat eccentric, which is more characteristic of captured bodies. It would, eventually however, collide with Earth or the Moon, like Phobos IRL. However, another problem is that it'd experience greater tidal heating here- possibly vaporizing its underground ices. A good solution to this would be a small, metallic asteroid with lots of valuable minerals- like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3554_Amun   3554 Amun. Not really good for a refueling base, but great to kickstart asteroid mining!

 

"As a desert planet, is there any way the planet could obtain large oil reserves? (yes, yes I am doing that)"

What's the point? If you need to get into space, things like CH4/LOX are better- Oil needs complex refining processes, and it primarily used on Earth because those RP-1 rocket systems are cheaper. Not to mention reusable engines would need to face a more severe coking problem. Or that it's completely uneconomical to send oil from Venus to Earth from it's inclined orbit (I'm making its orbit much more inclined to put it slightly closer to Earth than IRL, from 0.72 AU to 0.8 AU, giving it more of a chance to be habitable.) Not to mention the line of oil from Venus to Earth would almost certainly have a EOREI (Energy return on Energy invested of less than 1. Unconventional oil would be far more preferred.)

 

Also, oil and natural gas would be near-impossible to form on a planet w/o much water. Even if it was in the habitable zone earlier, it would not have enough water to form oil and natural gas (or fossil fuels for that matter, as coal forms in wetlands, needing lots of water.) http://www.fplsafetyworld.com/?ver=kkblue&utilid=fplforkids&id=16200

http://www.adventuresinenergy.org/What-are-Oil-and-Natural-Gas/How-Are-Oil-Natural-Gas-Formed.html

 

Mars would also face a similar issue- it would likely still have fossil fuels, but the colder climate, and greater distance from the Sun, would make it less productive for plants, and would therefore have much smaller reserves than Earth.

 

Minevera would likely have more oil and natural gas due to being covered with water- but good luck getting out of its gravity well (and atmosphere, for that matter).

 

Also, please update the 1st post with things we have finally established. It seems to still not be updated, and I need it to help finish the rest of the solar system.

Edited December 22, 2015 by fredinno

[Flybuild]

More planets. Maby around nibiru, have a full on solar system, And perhaps put it on the outer edge of the oort cloud, as to prevent as much disturbance, Also doing this would allow it to have its own mini asteroid belt of captured oort cloud objects, Perhapse give it a 7 planet system, and have one of the planets have a moon of a moon.