Relative Newbie Question on Science and Landers

[keyscapeunit]

After running through a few tutorials in sandbox, I've been progressing through the science mode of the game in order to follow what rocket parts do what, etc., and to provide my lazy butt some incentive to try new things

Anyways, I'm curious about a few things.  To illustrate, here is my scenario:

1. I have not yet unlocked the mobile science unit piece for the game.

2. I created a Minimus ship complete with a lander attached to the top of the command pod of my ship.  This worked well until I actually got to Minimus and realized I couldn't undock the lander.  I had a decoupler between the lander and the command pod, and, when it deployed, the two ships did not detach.  I do have the stabilizing beams attached from the lander to the main ship (the little thin grey lines) so that it wouldn't wobble during liftoff from Kerbal.  I was able to *very* briefly fire the engine on the lander which blew up the decoupler and the supports and detached the two, but this is obviously not ideal.  Is there a trick to this - perhaps I should use a docking port instead of a decoupler?

3. I have a scientist and pilot who successfully landed on Minimus in the lander and have gathered science.  My plan is to hop a few times around Minimus, but I'm not sure how to manage the science effectively.  There is a materials bay and several goo containers on the lander, and I used the materials bay and a few containers on my first landing as well as EVA reports for the two Kerbals.  My plan is to launch and dock with the main ship and transfer the science, but I'm not sure if I can do this without a mobile science unit - is that correct?  I was going to collect it via EVA and then board the main ship with the science but I'm not sure this will work.

4. If I have a scientist, can I reuse the goo containers or do I need the mobile science piece in order to do so?

5. Any other science collecting tips out there?

Thanks!!!

[Aethon]

A picture of your ship would help a lot.  

If you have a scientist, you only need one goo and one materials bay.  The scientist can reset them both from the right click menu.  Be sure to take the data first.

Any class can take data from the experiments and transfer them to any of the command pods, no need for a mobile processing lab to do that in this version.

Hope that helps.  Welcome to the forums.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Aethon

[keyscapeunit]

Thank you!  Here are some screenshots:

Top of the rocket with the lander at the very top:

 

 

Here is a closeup of the top:

 

Here is a slightly tilted view to look under the lander:

[Snark]

Yes, pictures would help for diagnosing the issue with "can't detach".

If you have two pieces A and B and want to separate them with a decoupler, make sure it's "decoupler attached to A, then B attached to decoupler" and that you didn't accidentally attach B directly to A somehow rather than to the decoupler.

Managing science is straightforward.  When a science instrument takes a reading, it contains the science and can't be used again without throwing away the science, since it's "full". However, if you send out a kerbal on EVA, you can right-click the instrument and choose "Take Science". This will transfer the science from the instrument to the kerbal, leaving the instrument ready to take another measurement.  When the kerbal goes back into the command pod, the science transfers from the kerbal to the pod and will stay there (unless you later tell another EVA kerbal to take it out of the pod).  Unlike science instruments, command pods can hold many science results.

The goo and the Science Jr. become unusable after removing their science, but as Aethon points out, a scientist can restore them again.  So if you're sending a ship with those instruments on it, it's good to have a scientist on board.

[FancyMouse]

Second all others have said. The only tip that I can give is don't forget to bring two pods and bring back two copies of surface samples and material studies when farming science.

[Snark]

3 hours ago, keyscapeunit said:

Thank you!  Here are some screenshots:

Here is a slightly tilted view to look under the lander:

 

Kinda hard to tell for sure, but it looks to me like that decoupler may be clipping into the top of the command pod.  It may not be properly attached I think what's happening there is that you have your lander's engine mounted directly onto that command pod, "through" the decoupler instead of "on" the decoupler.

To try to fix it, I suggest doing the following in the VAB (these instructions assume that your root part is on the lander, i.e. that you built from the lander downwards):

1. Dismount the big ship from the bottom of the lander
2. Take off the stack decoupler from the bottom of the lander's engine
3. Carefully put the stack decoupler back onto the bottom of the lander's engine
4. Carefully put the big ship back onto the decoupler.  Make sure that the decoupler sits on top of that command pod and doesn't clip into it.

Maybe give that a whirl and see if it helps?

Edited December 8, 2015 by Snark

[keyscapeunit]

Thanks all!  I actually put the decoupler on top of the command pod and then built/attached the lander, maybe it clipped straight to the pod.  I appreciate the help and will take a look.

[Plusck]

Yes there are a few parts that tend to clip into things all the time - especially if you actually try to hold the mouse where it should go rather than some distance away...

I personally use and abuse docking ports all the time. They are weaker but since you have struts anyway, it should be fine. It also future-proofs your current missions since anything you leave in orbit with a docking port can be refuelled and/or help fulfil expansion contracts that come along later. In your case you would have to turn the lander upside down (and not forget to check where you're "controlling from" in flight) to put a docking port on it, but even as it is now a docking port on the mk1-2 command pod would let you separate the two parts fine.

[Plusck]

Forgot about the "science tips" bit:

Your lander has oodles of fuel (too much, perhaps? Especially too much monoprop unless you leave RCS on for all manouvering) so I assume you're going to be doing all or nearly all biomes on one trip. Therefore getting the science is going to be a bit grindy. Especially if all your experiments are in the service pods because to get the data out and reset the goo / materials experiments you need to get a scientist to them.

Therefore, I'd highly recommend stacking two small lander cans and putting your experiments right by the door. That takes you down to 1.25 m scale parts (and 2x 0.66t rather than 2.66t for the habitable parts) for the lander, making it much nippier to throw around on Minmus, and it means that your scientist can EVA, grab data and board again without having to move off the ladder (though he will have to move for the materials bay anyway).

Finally, return from Minmus can get a bit hot. Are you sure that your return craft can stay stable retrograde on reentry?

[keyscapeunit]

Thanks for the help!  Yes, the goal on this mission was multiple biomes with multiple Kerbals.  It also was a rescue mission from my first attempt in which a lander clipped to the command pod.  I actually ran out of fuel while circularizing my return orbit around Kerbal and used my monopropellant to drop into a decaying orbit.  No problems in terms of descent stability, but the four radial chutes only slowed my descent to 6 m/s and I landed on some hills.  The remaining pieces separated as a result but everyone survived and I came home with 400 science which is good for me.  Of course, I'm happy to take suggestions here

[Plusck]

Cool. It's good to know for the reentry stability thing since I've never dared putting so much on the top side of a heatshield, especially with service bays at the bottom.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Plusck
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[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, keyscapeunit said:

Thanks for the help!  Yes, the goal on this mission was multiple biomes with multiple Kerbals.  It also was a rescue mission from my first attempt in which a lander clipped to the command pod.  I actually ran out of fuel while circularizing my return orbit around Kerbal and used my monopropellant to drop into a decaying orbit.  No problems in terms of descent stability, but the four radial chutes only slowed my descent to 6 m/s and I landed on some hills.  The remaining pieces separated as a result but everyone survived and I came home with 400 science which is good for me.  Of course, I'm happy to take suggestions here

There are 9 biomes on Minmus.  It's pretty easy to hit them all in 1 trip if you plan it properly.  First off, you need to know where the biomes are in the game (as opposed to looking at a paper map).  For this, you need either the SCANsat mod to map the planet yourself, or CTRL-ALT-F12 to open the cheat menu and enable visible biomes.  Then draw a path between them all that starts and ends near the equator.  So that's your route.

To follow this route, you need a lander with sufficient fuel, starting from it being on the ground after its 1st landing.  The fuel required depends on if the lander itself is also the crew return vehicle or whether you're doing this "Apollo-style".  If not Apollo, then the lander will need to arrive on the surface of Minmus the 1st time with about 3500m/s still in the tanks.  That's enough to hit all the biomes and come home using several high, gentle, safe aerobraking passes at Kerbin prior to landing.  Make if 4000m/s if you expect to waste fuel with imprecise hopping around Minmus.  If you're doing it Apollo-style, then the lander can get by with about 1000m/s less than if it returns itself, although it will need the ability to dock (a port + RCS + balanced RCS thrust) which doesn't make it really any cheaper.

The lander also needs 1 (and only 1) of every science instrument you have, plus a scientist, an antenna, batteries, and solar panels.  To maximize the science haul, use mods that add more experiments, like DMagic's Orbital Science.  If you're only sending down the scientist, then the lander also needs an OKTO probe core so it can use SAS even without a pilot aboard.  If you have a pilot, you don't need the probe core, but the only reason to send extra Kerbals is to level them up---they have no effect on the science gained.  But if you have the Field Experience mod, you don't need to make special trips just to level up Kerbals.  Yay!

So those are your basic desing parameters.  Use MJ's dV display or KER to make sure the payload part (crew + science) has enough dV for the job.  Then stick however much transfer stage and lifter you need under that to get to Minmus.

Once at Minmus, you need an in-game biome map (see above) to know where to land.  At each landing site, run all the experiments and have the scientist EVA to gather all the data and stuff them in the capsule, plus reset the Goo and Materials and take a surface sample.  Also plant a flag and include the name of the biome in the plaque, which helps keep track of where you've been already.  Don't forget to do crew reports and EVA reports as well.  You can do 2 EVA reports each landing, 1 on the ladder ("from space just above BiomeName") and on the surface ("from BiomeName").  This will require 2 EVAs because a Kerbal can only carry 1 EVA report at a time (unless you have Antenna Range, which allows Kerbals to transmit their own EVA reports).

The capsule can only store 1 experiment data set per experiment per location.  This is why you only need 1 Goo and 1 Material Bay.  The capsule can only hold 1 crew report in total, no matter where it's from, however.  This means you must always transmit crew reports, so the space is open to record another at the next biome.  This is why you need an antenna, batteries, and solar panels.

Good luck.

 

[Snark]

21 minutes ago, Plusck said:

Cool. It's good to know for the reentry stability thing since I've never dared putting so much on the top side of a heatshield, especially with service bays at the bottom.

If you have SAS level 1 (i.e. a level-1-or-higher pilot, or a HECS-or-better probe core), reentry stability isn't too much of a concern, usually-- just set your navball to "surface" mode, choose "hold retrograde", and keep your sweaty little hands the heck away from the controls.

Even if the craft is an unstable, one, as long as you have a reasonable amount of reaction torque, the SAS does a pretty good job of holding it so precisely retrograde that the reaction wheels can hold it against the instability forces.  Just be careful not to nudge the ship away from perfectly-retrograde until it has slowed down enough that a sudden flip wouldn't be catastrophic.

If you don't have level-1 SAS available and have to line things up manually, then it's harder.  You can still reenter a somewhat unstable craft, but you have to babysit it a lot to keep it pointed perfectly retrograde.  And since your reflexes aren't as fast as SAS's, that means you can't be as unstable (or stand up to as many reentry gees) as you could if you had SAS to help you.

 

 

[keyscapeunit]

Wow thanks all, these are great responses!

[ineon]

21 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

The capsule can only hold 1 crew report in total, no matter where it's from, however.

This isn't quite true is it? I thought that you can remove the crew report on EVA then enter the capsule and it will be added to the 'generic' science pool - freeing up the crew report science slot for another report.

[Geschosskopf]

5 hours ago, ineon said:

This isn't quite true is it? I thought that you can remove the crew report on EVA then enter the capsule and it will be added to the 'generic' science pool - freeing up the crew report science slot for another report.

I've never had that work for me.  I've tried to EVA, remove the crew report, and then stash it in the "generic capsule storage".  Yet when I try to take another crew report, it always tells me I'll have to overwrite the one I've already got.

But anyway, in general, capsules and passenger modules can only store 1 copy of any experiment from a given location,  Crew reports are maybe an exception but in general just transmit them to be safe.  The mobile lab can store however many, but that doesn't make it worth lugging along.  1 copy of any not-quite-everything experiment still always gets the bulk of the available points and the rest isn't worth carrying multiple experiments or a mobile lab for, let alone making a 2nd trip for.

[Aethon]

It works.  

While on the ladder EVAing, right click the capsule, take data, then click store experiments.  You can then take a crew report from a different situation without overwriting the previous one.