Zucal Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) Mother of god. Leak/rumor from the NSF L2 forum. Edited December 16, 2015 by Zucal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motokid600 Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 That's double the thrust of a SaturnV... I can't even imagine. Will the rocket be SSTO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streetwind Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 No, it lifts double the Saturn V's payload, too. (Or at least the above rumor claims as such. Mind you, that 236 ton figure is probably based on a cryptic comment by Chris Bergen that has been interpretated as such, not an actual confirmed source. The whole post above should be taken with a 15-meter sized grain of salt ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibb31 Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Please don't post stuff from NasaSpaceFlight.com's L2 forums. There are several reasons for the information on there to remain behind a paywall. If people start leaking stuff from it, then it won't last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartoffelkuchen Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Well, it's too late now anyway. Theguys over at reddit posted those snippets already 10h ago. Well, I don't really trust the numbers, I'll be waiting for official SpaceX statement. Though it's exciting and everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) It's a shame none of this effort is going into anything useful; just an insane one-of-those-libertarian-artificial-island-schemes-but-in-SPACE. Edited December 13, 2015 by Kryten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen_Heart Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Not going to trust those numbers until SpaceX officially announces them. Something being rumoured on a forum isn't a good source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elthy Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 53 minutes ago, Nibb31 said: Please don't post stuff from NasaSpaceFlight.com's L2 forums. There are several reasons for the information on there to remain behind a paywall. If people start leaking stuff from it, then it won't last. What are those reasons? It just seems to hinder interessted people. If they want to avoid spam of "common folk" like us they could make the forum read only for those not paying. Its allways great when information is available to everyone, as Snowden showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 For a start plenty of that stuff is legally not allowed to enter the public domain, and plenty more of it is only offered by people because they know it's a trusted venue and it won't leak everywhere. 41 minutes ago, Kartoffelkuchen said: Well, it's too late now anyway. Theguys over at reddit posted those snippets already 10h ago. That's not how copyright law works, bucko. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elthy Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) If thats how copyright works someone (e.g. a politican) could forbid newspapers to print quotes of him/her, e.g. when those quotes are better reserved to a small audience (like Mitt Romneys 47% comment). In this case there is a special public interest, its about the futur of mankind, not some .mp3 of an unreleased song. Edited December 13, 2015 by Elthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen_Heart Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 51 minutes ago, Kryten said: It's a shame none of this effort is going into anything useful; just an insane one-of-those-libertarian-artificial-island-schemes-but-in-SPACE. What don't you like about this effort? If it was NASA I would understand, as it is your tax dollars, but SpaceX is a private company. Besides I think a Mars mission could be pretty useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) Two things; 1) The only reason the information even exists on the forum is because it's a trusted, private venue. If a newspaper printed quotes from someone who'd been told they're off the record that could be illegal depending on jurisdiction, and unquestionably unethical anywhere 2) This material being on the forum places squad at risk of getting a takedown notice at the very least. You're not being a brave scout in defense of freedom, you're placing a company in the line of legal issues because you want a little extra rumoured stuff about your favourite megalomaniacal billionaire. It's not remotely in the public interest. The fact that it's based on nothing more than libertarian BS about the potential of the frontier? It's all buzzwords, dig a little deeper and there's nothing there. Why would somebody pay millions of pounds so that they can go to Mars and scrub the floors? Spirit-of-individualism, no-such-thing-as-society, opportunity-to-be-the-first-janitor-on-mars yadda yadda yadda. Quote What don't you like about this effort? If it was NASA I would understand, as it is your tax dollars, but SpaceX is a private company. Besides I think a Mars mission could be pretty useful. The fact that it's based on nothing more than libertarian BS about the potential of the frontier? It's all buzzwords, dig a little deeper and there's nothing there. Why would somebody pay millions of pounds so that they can go to Mars and scrub the floors? Spirit-of-individualism, no-such-thing-as-society, opportunity-to-be-the-first-janitor-on-mars yadda yadda yadda. Edited December 13, 2015 by Kryten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elthy Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Kryten said: 2) This material being on the forum places squad at risk of getting a takedown notice at the very least. You're not being a brave scout in defense of freedom, you're placing a company in the line of legal issues Thats impossible. Someone posted a picture from reddit here, where the reddit author has the copyright. The guy on reddit just took screenshots of his browser, showing text that could be written by himself without knowing L2... Edit: Aynone got other links to stuff from L2? Edited December 13, 2015 by Elthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 1 minute ago, Elthy said: Thats impossible. Someone posted a picture from reddit here, where the reddit author has the copyright. The guy on reddit just took screenshots of his browser, showing text that could be written by himself without knowing L2... That is not how copyright works unless you've done some real transformative work, like produced a parody. Copy and paste is not transformative. This is basic, basic stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jouni Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 1 minute ago, Kryten said: 1) The only reason the information even exists on the forum is because it's a trusted, private venue. If a newspaper printed quotes from someone who'd been told they're off the record that could be illegal depending on jurisdiction, and unquestionably unethical anywhere Exposing leaked material is rarely unethical. The main exceptions are when it's your duty (e.g. as an employee or official) to keep the material secret, or when the exposure puts someone's life at risk or violates people's privacy. Even in those cases, exposure in the name of public interest may outweigh the harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 It is completely unethical and illegal. Look at the L2 terms of use, this guy is blatantly, blatantly breaking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elthy Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) If that stuff would be so delicate they wouldnt post it where a competitor could acces it for "only" 90$.+ Quote It is completely unethical and illegal. Look at the L2 terms of use, this guy is blatantly, blatantly breaking them. Hes is breaking the terms of L2, meaning he could be banned from NSF. But he isnt doing something illegal. Edited December 13, 2015 by Elthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streetwind Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Could you perhaps take the discussion about the ethics of closed communities, leaking information and copyright law into its own thread? It's hardly topical here, while at the same time it seems you guys are dead set on arguing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jouni Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 4 minutes ago, Kryten said: It is completely unethical and illegal. Look at the L2 terms of use, this guy is blatantly, blatantly breaking them. Legality and ethicality are orthogonal issues. All combinations of legal/illegal and ethical/unethical are quite common. Breaking a random web forum's terms of use is just a breach of contract and possibly bad manners. Under most circumstances, such breaches don't have anything to do with legality or ethicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 1 minute ago, Jouni said: Breaking a random web forum's terms of use is just a breach of contract and possibly bad manners. Under most circumstances, such breaches don't have anything to do with legality or ethicality. Again, posting this here or anywhere else breaks the terms of NSF's copyright. They'd be fully within their rights to do a takedown request on the forum at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jouni Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Kryten said: Again, posting this here or anywhere else breaks the terms of NSF's copyright. They'd be fully within their rights to do a takedown request on the forum at the very least. We're discussing this on a forum owned by a Dutch legal entity and hosted on a server that appears to be in the UK. The image in question is being hosted in a service provided by an US company. I don't know from which countries the original leaker, the person who hosts the image on Imgur and the person who posted it here are from. I don't know which countries' copyright laws are applicable and what they say about situations like this. Edited December 13, 2015 by Jouni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 How not? We're talking the very basics of copyright law here, this is material belonging to somebody with terms attached to not share it publically, and has not been subjected to transformative work by any of these people. The only way that wouldn't be illegal is if one of those jurisdictions just didn't have copyright law. Even then, it would be blatantly against L2, reddit, imgur, and KSP forum terms of service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jouni Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 2 minutes ago, Kryten said: How not? We're talking the very basics of copyright law here, this is material belonging to somebody with terms attached to not share it publically, and has not been subjected to transformative work by any of these people. The only way that wouldn't be illegal is if one of those jurisdictions just didn't have copyright law. Even then, it would be blatantly against L2, reddit, imgur, and KSP forum terms of service. Different copyright laws have different standards on what qualifies as published material. Subscription-only materials available for anyone paying the subscription fee often qualify, even if they come with limiting terms of service. Once the material has been published, different copyright laws have different approaches to fair use and when you're allowed to use quotes or excepts from the published material. They also differ in the extent to which terms of service may limit these rights. And even if something is against the law, the laws differ in who is allowed to take action and how. The whole concept of "takedown requests" is alien to many countries. In general, copyright is a huge mess in international situations, and simple cases probably don't exist at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B787_300 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) 17 hours ago, Nibb31 said: Please don't post stuff from NasaSpaceFlight.com's L2 forums. There are several reasons for the information on there to remain behind a paywall. If people start leaking stuff from it, then it won't last. It doesnt matter if it has been posted other places before being posted here. This screenshot in particular was posted on Reddit before being posted on the forums and thus was already leaked. The whole reason NSF has a paywall that is L2 is because Chris found out he could get $$ for "special" info and videos. Yes he does get stuff before most people but that is because he has built a following and has contacts. Also NSF would have practically no case against this site because we were not the source of the leak and the info on that site is leaked from other places (SpaceX, NASA, etc) he cannot claim copyright for that and only the person who originally posted it to Reddit broke L2. Squad is NOT bound by the Terms of Service of L2. I have restored the post that has the BFR/MCT info in it. Please remember though that those numbers are speculations by people who may or may not know anything. Just to be clear, I do not approve of people taking the info from behind a paywall and posting it publicly, but once it is out it is silly to try to cap it. And as long as people do not post it to here first, there is really nothing that can be done. Edited December 14, 2015 by B787_300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zucal Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 I want to clarify that I am not the leaker, I've just cross-posted this from the /r/SpaceX subreddit. I also disapprove of leaking in cases like this, but the fact stands that this is not only extremely interesting information, but it is extremely public information. To restrict discussion of such relevant information is pointless, you can't stuff the cat back in the bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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