Designing a Venus Cloud Base

[Motokid600]

What would it take for a one hour EVA on the surface? Imagine an overkill suit like something out of Starcraft. It'd have a set of balloons the person could control their decent with down to the foot per second. Float down to the surface, do some field science then inflate the balloons again and ascend back up. Would such a suit/balloon that could withstand the conditions be possible to construct?

That's the clostest I can imagine humans getting to the surface of Venus. Short excursions from this cloud city. 

How to re-rendezvous with the city coming back up? A separate deployment blimp with propellers perhaps. It'd be automated and stay fixed above the person below. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by Motokid600

[Kaos]

One could build an suit that can withstand the conditions. It would have to be strongly cooled and armored.

But I see no usage in that. They would use robots controlled from above, the same reason, we we build robots controlled from above for the bottom of the oceans.

Going up would happen with a balloon. Venus is made for balloons

[Rakaydos]

2 hours ago, Kaos said:

@EDIT3: I had that already in my first post in this thread, post nr. 3 in total: Chemical element you can get from the atmosphere are: Oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, sulfur, hydrogen, chlorine, fluorine and some noble gases.

So, Organic plastics, Carbon fiber, Wood, perhaps Graphine...

What use do we have for Flourine and Chlorine? They're dangerous reactants, but we dont want to pollute theminto the atmosphere, or the atmosphereic percentage of florine and chlorine will rise.

Unless that's a good thing? will they fall to the lower atmosphere, react with surface material and be kicked up ready for separation again?

[Kaos]

Fluorine and chlorine are also used in some kind of plastics. Chlorine is also used in cleaning, sterilization and some production processes.

Then both are essential to human bodies. But perhaps not in a mass that really counts

[YNM]

On surface manned excursions : Yeah, we won't get them. You don't plant a flag on Venus - they'll just melt off either ! Most likely you just get some submarine into it or something.

On chlorine & Fluorine usage : You'll be amazed that most non-reacting material have them in the structure actually, for the precise reason that they're very reactive on their own...

 

 

[Kaos]

Now I see the possibility of a manned surface expedition. It will not be worth the effort just to get a manned surface mission, but at least an in principle doable way. First you build a cupola on the ground with heat resistant materials that conduct only very little thermal. Perhaps some combinations of iron for stability and stone for reducing heat conduction. Or diamond powder and tungsten if you want to make it even more exclusive . And the cupola has to be stable enough to withstand Venus atmospheric pressure. You set up some heat stable power generation around (not completely sure, how, but quite certain possible). With an heat exchanger you cool the inner part of the cupola down. Perhaps one should also cool the ground actively, otherwise it will take a very long time to reach endurable temperatures. Then you exchange the atmosphere in it into breathable gas.

Go into the cupola, plant a flag in the ground and think about why you have wasted so much effort in setting a step into Venus.

More serious: A subsurface cooled base might indeed be useful for mining. Just the connections to the surface need such a cupola.

[PB666]

24 minutes ago, Kaos said:

Now I see the possibility of a manned surface expedition. It will not be worth the effort just to get a manned surface mission, but at least an in principle doable way. First you build a cupola on the ground with heat resistant materials that conduct only very little thermal. Perhaps some combinations of iron for stability and stone for reducing heat conduction. Or diamond powder and tungsten if you want to make it even more exclusive . And the cupola has to be stable enough to withstand Venus atmospheric pressure. You set up some heat stable power generation around (not completely sure, how, but quite certain possible). With an heat exchanger you cool the inner part of the cupola down. Perhaps one should also cool the ground actively, otherwise it will take a very long time to reach endurable temperatures. Then you exchange the atmosphere in it into breathable gas.

Go into the cupola, plant a flag in the ground and think about why you have wasted so much effort in setting a step into Venus.

More serious: A subsurface cooled base might indeed be useful for mining. Just the connections to the surface need such a cupola.

First you create a heavily insulated shell with windows made of diamond glass, you fill the shell with water, inside the water shell you fill with liquid nitrogen, then you place some heavy electronic equipment and some broad spectrum antenna capable of several bands of 4g communication with your high atmosphere probe that will collect and send. Drop this shell down using vanes that use venus high atmospheric density to slow it down. The diamond window points to the ground, around the window are lasers and hf generators that repel the atmosphere off the window, behind the window is a high resolution camera. As you reach the surface you find red-out conditions, the atmosphere and ground are glowing red, visibility is a few cm, the hf generator is boosted to purge that gas momentarily from around the camera to the ground, the camera takes a picture of the ground, the shell of the craft and the released Steam and the high pressure is causing sulfur oxide gases to condense as sulferic acid on the cools sides of the craft, as it hits the ground it explodes and now the ground in 'boiling chalk', metal aggregates, the craft starts to lean over and begins to sink into the venutian surface and eventually it dissappears. Signal lost, and you thank your favorite deity that you did not send a manned mission down to the surface.

What are the tags on this threads - No mars discussion, no politics .. . . somewhere along the way we should have had a discussion on what are appropriate tags, if someone want to search for this thread say in the future, those tags sure are not going to help. Failure to get the point.

 

 

[AngelLestat]

Ok. designing a cloud base seems fun, but maybe we should be more organized.  not sure how.. I will sent to Rakaydos some info to add to the OP, that will help everyone to save some time in data search.

If the zubrin co2 air breathing rocket would be work in mars, then in venus should be work as wonder.
Here in earth we have just 21% oxygen in the air, in venus we have 97% of co2, so if that can be used, I want to know, how do you made that magnesium fuel in venus?

-------------------------------------------

I take some time to work on the energy aspect so you can connect your chemical machines to do your stuff.
These are the best methods that I figure out: 

In the moment we know our objectives and base requirements. I will be able to combine a design based in the first 2 ideas to solve the energy aspect and calculate its mass. 

 

On 11/1/2016 at 2:01 PM, YNM said:

Does anyone have any plans (or vision ?) for entry / return vehicle ? As I've said on the closed thread Venus atmo is pretty much ours on lower gravity. Launching a rocket from under a baloon isn't good I think, over a baloon ? How would it hold ?

What about a floating platform that can control its buoyancy compressing hydrogen.
If we use methane rockets which volume is big.  Then an empty rocket stage would float vertical (engine down) at certain altitude once it falls to venus. 
This guy calculate that: 
http://selenianboondocks.com/2013/11/venusian-rocket-floaties/

Now, you can add to these stages extra inflatable balloons that would not add much weight to increase the flotation altitude to 25 km, which you only need achieve 15kg/m3 and resist 266 celsius, then you can pick up the stage with this platform from below, then the second stage and for last you rise it to 52km for assembly, refuel and launch.

No sure your thoughts.

Edited January 16, 2016 by AngelLestat
draw wrong airship steam direction

[Kaos]

Ok, I was a bit off-topic. Nevertheless, I think some kind of ground activity is needed for a big cloud base.

[Findthepin1]

We can use hydrogen balloons on Venus because there is basically no oxygen to cause any Hindenburg problems.

[WinkAllKerb'']

sound to me like a waste of energy ressource in the wrong direction. ( if large scale. ) why would you ever want to go closer to the sun ? that's something i can't really understand philosophically speaking.

Edited January 11, 2016 by WinkAllKerb''

[Kaos]

Lets talk about the lifting gas:

• Breathing air: only half the buoyancy than helium, but you can walk in it. I think this advantage should not be ignored, as it is very important for human to be able to walk around. There is not much free space there.
• Helium: As said: Double the buoyancy, but much more complicated to get. So you might be able to construct more than twice as big structures if you use breathing air instead.
• Hydrogen: Easier to get than helium, nearly the same buoyancy. But due to its small molecules it diffuses through other stuff which results in a loss of hydrogen over time and makes surrounding material brittle over long time. So you should not use it besides short missions. If you have oxygen close to it, even if separated by a wall, it is even worse, not least due to diffusion, but the brittleness-problem is bad enough.

So I would use breathing air as lifting gas for most purposes.

[SuperFastJellyfish]

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

First you create a heavily insulated shell with windows made of diamond glass, you fill the shell with water, inside the water shell you fill with liquid nitrogen, then you place some heavy electronic equipment and some broad spectrum antenna capable of several bands of 4g communication with your high atmosphere probe that will collect and send. Drop this shell down using vanes that use venus high atmospheric density to slow it down. The diamond window points to the ground, around the window are lasers and hf generators that repel the atmosphere off the window, behind the window is a high resolution camera. As you reach the surface you find red-out conditions, the atmosphere and ground are glowing red, visibility is a few cm, the hf generator is boosted to purge that gas momentarily from around the camera to the ground, the camera takes a picture of the ground, the shell of the craft and the released Steam and the high pressure is causing sulfur oxide gases to condense as sulferic acid on the cools sides of the craft, as it hits the ground it explodes and now the ground in 'boiling chalk', metal aggregates, the craft starts to lean over and begins to sink into the venutian surface and eventually it dissappears. Signal lost, and you thank your favorite deity that you did not send a manned mission down to the surface.

What are the tags on this threads - No mars discussion, no politics .. . . somewhere along the way we should have had a discussion on what are appropriate tags, if someone want to search for this thread say in the future, those tags sure are not going to help. Failure to get the point.

 

 

(Bold mine)

According to the Venera landers, the visibility is a good bit more than a few cm.  From here:

Edit:  Keep in mind this was done with 1960-70's tech, and the Soviet's weren't going for super reliability(unlike modern probes).  They sent multiple landers at a time because of the high probability of failure.  With today's materials, simulations, and standards; however, a reliable, long lasting Venusian lander(I would think) is probably fairly easy to create these days.

Edited January 12, 2016 by SuperFastJellyfish

[cubinator]

My ideal base would be like this:

1. Large square platform that is extendable (maybe extends in space and doubles as a gigantic heat shield on one side)

2. Large balloons in the corners which connect to tanks of light gas like helium (individually controlled, automatically maintains stable altitude and stays upright)

3. A smaller lander which uses it's own balloon to descend to the surface, and can return via balloon and maybe sails with rockets for finer maneuvering as well

4. The main platform can be raised or lowered into the atmosphere

5. Rocket that can return samples, etc. to waiting interplanetary vehicle in orbit (Platform is raised very high into the atmosphere for launch so that a smaller rocket can be used)

 

The nice thing about balloons is you can go basically however high you want, as long as your ship can handle the various pressures/wind speeds/temperatures/all the other things that can kill space probes on Venus. So if the platform can withstand anything from vacuum to acidic hurricane-force winds at 1 atm, it should be fine.

[AngelLestat]

Some data we should have into account:

Winds:

Altitude colour code: Blue=62-70 km, purple=58-64 km, Red=44-48 km.

 

 

Chemestry:

 

Anual Energy Budget:

 

Pressure, temperature and density:

 

Surface map:

 

Extras:

Havoc mission pdf with extra info on venus.
Gravity at 52km: 8,7 m/s2
Venus circumference: 38025 km 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y5gu06h0u7n7v66/HAVOC-Final-Outbrief-General-pdf.pdf?dl=0

Any other interesting fact or data about Venus, can be added here.

Edited January 22, 2016 by AngelLestat

[AngelLestat]

17 hours ago, Kaos said:

Ok, I was a bit off-topic. Nevertheless, I think some kind of ground activity is needed for a big cloud base.

Yeah, it should be easy to solve, 460c, 90bar and no sulphuric acid..   the first is beaten in all kind of restaurant ovens, normal materials can resist 1000, to 2000 to 4000 c, the second was beaten in 1960 when the manned submarine trieste reach 11000 meters of deep, which equals to 1100 bar.   High temperature electronics was designed, they can work without problem under 350c. And if your rover heats up, it can inflate a ballon to reach 10 km until it cools down.

16 hours ago, Kaos said:

• Hydrogen: Easier to get than helium, nearly the same buoyancy. But due to its small molecules it diffuses through other stuff which results in a loss of hydrogen over time and makes surrounding material brittle over long time. So you should not use it besides short missions. If you have oxygen close to it, even if separated by a wall, it is even worse, not least due to diffusion, but the brittleness-problem is bad enough.

So I would use breathing air as lifting gas for most purposes.

Helium diffuse faster than hydrogen, because Hydrogen is a diatomic molecule. By the way there are hydrogen proof layers, unless we use party balloons.

15 hours ago, cubinator said:

My ideal base would be like this:

1. Large square platform that is extendable (maybe extends in space and doubles as a gigantic heat shield on one side)

2. Large balloons in the corners which connect to tanks of light gas like helium (individually controlled, automatically maintains stable altitude and stays upright)

3. A smaller lander which uses it's own balloon to descend to the surface, and can return via balloon and maybe sails with rockets for finer maneuvering as well

4. The main platform can be raised or lowered into the atmosphere

5. Rocket that can return samples, etc. to waiting interplanetary vehicle in orbit (Platform is raised very high into the atmosphere for launch so that a smaller rocket can be used)

The nice thing about balloons is you can go basically however high you want, as long as your ship can handle the various pressures/wind speeds/temperatures/all the other things that can kill space probes on Venus. So if the platform can withstand anything from vacuum to acidic hurricane-force winds at 1 atm, it should be fine.

Not sure about one single vehicle able to travel between so different density and temperatures, like the ones found between surface and clouds.  Maybe something from 52 to 30km, then other vehicle for 30 to surface.  Maybe a hot air ballon would be able to make the whole trip, but it would not be able to lift much, if the air is already at 400 degrees, it does not become much lighter heating to 600 degress.

[fredinno]

Umm, I get how you get off Venus, but how would you get BACK to a Venus Cloud Base?

[Motokid600]

17 hours ago, SuperFastJellyfish said:

(Bold mine)

According to the Venera landers, the visibility is a good bit more than a few cm.  From here:

Edit:  Keep in mind this was done with 1960-70's tech, and the Soviet's weren't going for super reliability(unlike modern probes).  They sent multiple landers at a time because of the high probability of failure.  With today's materials, simulations, and standards; however, a reliable, long lasting Venusian lander(I would think) is probably fairly easy to create these days.

I remembered awhile back we were having a discussion about those pictures. They were said to be faked iirc. Venera never took any images of the Horizon.

So as far as surface visibility goes I'm willing to bet it's a lot worse then what you see there.

[WinkAllKerb'']

thks for sharing angel very interesting ; )

[Findthepin1]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Umm, I get how you get off Venus, but how would you get BACK to a Venus Cloud Base?

Propellers, perhaps? When you want the rover to go back, it can inflate a balloon around itself, making itself into a little airship that has a propeller to get it around horizontally. Like bags on the sides of the rover that can be filled up with hydrogen stored inside, maybe even hydrogen extracted from the sulphuric acid in the air.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Findthepin1

[WinkAllKerb'']

might be all about momemtum and momentum loss going back and forth and stock thing somewhere and how to reduce energy consumption at some point ?

[Kaos]

1 hour ago, AngelLestat said:

Yeah, it should be easy to solve, 460c, 90bar and no sulphuric acid..   the first is beaten in all kind of restaurant ovens, normal materials can resist 1000, to 2000 to 4000 c, the second was beaten in 1960 when the manned submarine trieste reach 11000 meters of deep, which equals to 1100 bar.   High temperature electronics was designed, they can work without problem under 350c. And if your rover heats up, it can inflate a ballon to reach 10 km until it cools down.

Helium diffuse faster than hydrogen, because Hydrogen is a diatomic molecule. By the way there are hydrogen proof layers, unless we use party balloons.

Not sure about one single vehicle able to travel between so different density and temperatures, like the ones found between surface and clouds.  Maybe something from 52 to 30km, then other vehicle for 30 to surface.  Maybe a hot air ballon would be able to make the whole trip, but it would not be able to lift much, if the air is already at 400 degrees, it does not become much lighter heating to 600 degress.

Rising to 10 km also in case of overheating is a good comment.

Sounds plausible that helium diffuses faster. I just know of the problem with brittleness by diffusion with hydrogen. Another thing I made a mistake in recalling memory here, was that I know that it is a problem to store high pressured hydrogen because of diffusion. But as we have 1 bar here, I do not really know, how big the problem is.

Multiple vehicles have to problem that they require more docking. Docking balloons is much simpler than docking planes or docking in space, but still something that can cost time. But I see the advantages: The mining hardware does not have to be lifted all the way up, the lifting hardware for the higher part does not have to be that much heatproof.

[Kaos]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Umm, I get how you get off Venus, but how would you get BACK to a Venus Cloud Base?

Whom are you referring to? And what do you mean by BACK? From Earth to Venus? From surface to clouds? From Venus orbit to Venus clouds?

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, Kaos said:

Whom are you referring to? And what do you mean by BACK? From Earth to Venus? From surface to clouds? From Venus orbit to Venus clouds?

Venus orbit to clouds.

[cubinator]

1 hour ago, fredinno said:

Venus orbit to clouds.

I guess it'd be kind of like SpaceX's barge landings, except the barge is flying and moved by the wind. Another idea I had today was for all balloon vehicles to have some sort of sail, although the propellers mentioned above would be more practical.