Life Support - TAC or USI?

[eberkain]

I just want to say I've tried all the life support mods at length.  For the new career I started USI was my choice because it just fits KSP better than the others, it adds life support as a consideration, but doesn't go off the rails with realism, much like the rest of the stock game.   If you are playing RO, RSS, FAR or any of the other realism mods then USI probably won't fit in with the theme of those mods as well. 

[BetaguyGZT]

A big retool of BioMass is in-progress, for anyone keeping score. I'm interested in any and all feedback on how we can make it ISRU-Realistic. If that means Module Manager patches for Realism Overhaul, I'll gladly do them. I'm a fan of RO, personally; but I also do KSP in "Kerbalism Mode" too.

We're moving away from TAC-LS and towards using the Stock Converters as a future-proofing measure. The .dll is long gone, too.  

[Manimal]

14 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Since you are using KSP-AVC, show me your addon list.  Because I suspect you are leaving out something.  Also where the heck are you getting those two different files?  

 

(Specifically, this screen here:)

Hi, I've not seen the screen with the mod box in the upper left. I'm installing all mods manually. However I installed a test KSP 1.1.2 with ONLY the two mods in question and the same happens (so the rest of the mods is apparently not an issue). I'm starting the game in 64bit.

If it's important I can check the download history to see where I did get the second file.

[RoverDude]

Yet you just said you use KSP-AVC.

And yes it's important - because your install is messed up, and you are making it really hard for me to help you.

Also.  Seriously, install KSP-AVC.  It's going to point you directly to the component you need to upgrade.

Edited June 21, 2016 by RoverDude

[Manimal]

Well AVC is installed because it told me about outdated mods (which I then updated). However I've not seen the box with the list. Should that happen by itself? Or am I misunderstanding something? (I'm in the office and can check in the evening).

 

EDIT: Now thinking about it I never intentionally installed AVC. I just got the messages if mods are allowed to check for new versions and sometimes they told me.

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Manimal

[eberkain]

3 hours ago, Manimal said:

Well AVC is installed because it told me about outdated mods (which I then updated). However I've not seen the box with the list. Should that happen by itself? Or am I misunderstanding something? (I'm in the office and can check in the evening).

 

EDIT: Now thinking about it I never intentionally installed AVC. I just got the messages if mods are allowed to check for new versions and sometimes they told me.

 

There is something called Mini-AVC that many mods pack in, which gives you the popup you are talking about.  Install the full version and you will get more info. 

[Manimal]

Yes, I didn't know about MIni-AVc and 'full'-AVC. Anyway I installed it and ran it on the test KSP game (1.1.2) with only TAC-LS and UKS installed.:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/740fm2w226zde3v/KSP-Problem.jpg?dl=0

 

[RoverDude]

See that thing in yellow?  It means you have something out of date.  And it probably told you too when you started up.  Download the new version, be sure to clear out the UmbraSpaceIndustries/Kolonization folder first.

[Manimal]

12 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

See that thing in yellow?  It means you have something out of date.  And it probably told you too when you started up.  Download the new version, be sure to clear out the UmbraSpaceIndustries/Kolonization folder first.

O.k. I'll do it.

The file: 'USI_Kolonization_Systems_MKS_OKS-0.40.3.0' I loaded on the 5th of June from SpaceDock.

[Manimal]

Hi, replacing Kolonization Core with the latest version worked and the game started. Well, now 1.1.3 is out and I'll probably start over. Thanks for the support and in guiding me to KSP-AVC. That is a very handy mod.

[Tyko]

Hey RoverDude - you made the orange suited kerbals immune to the effects of low supplies. What about tying immunity to the BadA$$ trait? It seems like a good fit.

[RoverDude]

Actually you can change any Kerbal you want via the config to have alternate (vet) effects

[G'th]

Haven't really read the topic past the first page, but I'd like to chime in saying that I'd love to see a "merger" of TAC and USI. I love the deeper mechanics behind USI, but I also find myself missing the soft integration with other mods that TAC has, as well as its more realistic baseline. For instance, running out of Supplies in USI just requires resupply (in whatever way you want to do so). However, with TAC if you run out of say, Oxygen, you could potentially harvest it in-situ. Same with water. Both of those resources could also be derived from turning on Fuel Cells or Sabatier reactors, among other things. You're still left with Food, but in that case both mods cover it as all the ways you could replenish Food supply in TAC follows the same methods for the generic "Supplies" in USI.

TL:DR, I wish USI had a toggle for a deeper resource base. 

[DStaal]

14 minutes ago, G'th said:

Haven't really read the topic past the first page, but I'd like to chime in saying that I'd love to see a "merger" of TAC and USI. I love the deeper mechanics behind USI, but I also find myself missing the soft integration with other mods that TAC has, as well as its more realistic baseline. For instance, running out of Supplies in USI just requires resupply (in whatever way you want to do so). However, with TAC if you run out of say, Oxygen, you could potentially harvest it in-situ. Same with water. Both of those resources could also be derived from turning on Fuel Cells or Sabatier reactors, among other things. You're still left with Food, but in that case both mods cover it as all the ways you could replenish Food supply in TAC follows the same methods for the generic "Supplies" in USI.

TL:DR, I wish USI had a toggle for a deeper resource base. 

The toggle's called UKS. 

[Tybot]

So I recently started a new themed modded install after taking a break for a few months. A lot of it revolves around UKS/MKS, but I opted for TAC-LS as I wanted the increased challenge and complexity I remember it having. But after learning more about where USI-LS has come, it seems like it has added more options to bridge the gap since I last used it? I really wanted to make supply chains, sustainability, and ISRU an important part of the game, and from what RoverDude is suggesting when pared with UKS/MKS, USI-LS has more depth towards that.

It is a relatively new career but still far enough along that I'd rather not start over if I could avoid it. Has anyone switched LS mods mid-save? Does that break anything besides saved craft? I'm in between manned missions and just before making permanent stations so if I'm going to switch, this is the last and best place for me to do it. Also I hear whispers of a new USI-LS version in the works so wondering if it's best to wait for it or not.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Tybot

[RoverDude]

Switching will not break anything, other than having some weird extra resources - just make sure they have supplies beforehand.  You may have a larger problem tho with habitation timers, since TAC-LS has no analogue to this requirement (i.e. no stuffing Kerbals in tin cans for 20 years).

 

[DStaal]

And if you don't have any manned missions going on that probably won't be a problem. 

[LeuZ]

One Question: In Tac LS you need to have EC all the time so your kerbals won't freeze and I really like this mechanic.

Is there something similar in USI LS? 

 

[DStaal]

2 hours ago, LeuZ said:

One Question: In Tac LS you need to have EC all the time so your kerbals won't freeze and I really like this mechanic.

Is there something similar in USI LS? 

 

Yep.  You need EC all the time or your Kerbals will... Whatever they do when they run out of supplies.     (Basically there's a secondary supply timer for EC.)

[BT Industries]

I like to mix USI-LS with Kerbalism.

This way my kerbals die if they run out of oxygen and only go on strike if they run out of food.

I'll post the Kerbalism profile I use to make the two compatible if someones interested. 

[Tyko]

18 hours ago, BT Industries said:

I like to mix USI-LS with Kerbalism.

This way my kerbals die if they run out of oxygen and only go on strike if they run out of food.

I'll post the Kerbalism profile I use to make the two compatible if someones interested. 

Sure! can you please explain a bit more?

I just learned today that USI-LS doesn't properly report Supplies/energy use when the vessel is not active. RoverDude referred to it a problem with Catch-up mechanics. Kerbalism claims to have " coherent background simulation". If ShotgunNinja has figured out how to do it, I'm pretty sold on that. 

EDIT: @RoverDude and @Merkov clarified that while USI-LS doesn't accurately report when the craft is not active, the accounting is automatically corrected when you switch to the craft or every 6 hours when Catch-up mechanics happen. I didn't want to misrepresent USI-LS as being broken. It works correctly. It's just the reporting mechanism that's a bit wonky.

Edited July 27, 2016 by tjt
Added clarification around USI-LS mechanics

[BT Industries]

2 hours ago, tjt said:

Sure! can you please explain a bit more?

I just learned today that USI-LS doesn't properly report Supplies/energy use when the vessel is not active. RoverDude referred to it a problem with Catch-up mechanics. Kerbalism claims to have " coherent background simulation". If ShotgunNinja has figured out how to do it, I'm pretty sold on that. 

Well as you know in USI-LS Kerbals need supplies and go on strike if they have none but in Kerbalism Kerbals require Food and Oxygen as well as EC to keep the life support working even when on even when on EVA.

Turns out it is really easy to turn of the food requirement in Kerbalism so that it doesn't clash with USI-LS

ShotgunNinja explains how it works very well so I'll quote him...

"Kerbalism can run arbitrary 'rules' that deal with life support and the environment. These rules are grouped in 'profiles' and you can find some in the profiles/ directory, including the default one. Profiles are also used to enable and disable some of the mechanics. If Kerbalism run without a profile it will degenerate into a background resource simulation with a decent EC monitor/planner ui. The signal mechanic is disabled automatically if you have RemoteTech or AntennaRange installed, and the malfunction mechanic do the same if you have DangIt. Finally, check out the file settings.cfg to tweak the environment simulation parameters."

So without futher ado  here is my custom profile...

Spoiler

// This is the default profile

// ============================================================================
// ENABLE FEATURES
// ============================================================================

// comment out to disable the signal mechanic
// disabled automatically if RemoteTech or AntennaRange are detected
@Kerbalism:FOR[EnableSignal] {}

// comment out to disable malfunctions
// disabled automatically if DangIt is detected
@Kerbalism:FOR[EnableMalfunction] {}

// comment out to remove scrubbers from the game
@Kerbalism:FOR[EnableScrubber] {}

// comment out to remove radiation from the game
@Kerbalism:FOR[EnableShielding] {}

// ============================================================================
// RULES
// ============================================================================

// CLIMATE
Rule
{
  name = Climate
  resource_name = ElectricCharge
  rate = 0.0001242236 // 0.02 per-second at average temp diff in LKO
  degeneration = 0.00000345 // 30min
  on_eva = 20.0 // 16min
  on_resque = 250.0
  modifier = temperature

  warning_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL feels cold|$ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is sweating
  danger_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is freezing to death|$ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is burning alive
  fatal_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL froze to death|$ON_VESSEL$KERBAL was burned alive
  relax_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL hypothermia is under control|$ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is hugging the climatizer

  low_message = $VESSEL batteries are almost empty$NEWLINE<i>We are squeezing the last bit of juice</i>|$VESSEL batteries are almost empty$NEWLINE<i>Shutting down non-essential systems</i>
  empty_message = There is no more ElectricCharge on $VESSEL$NEWLINE<i>Life support systems are off</i>|There is no more ElectricCharge on $VESSEL$NEWLINE<i>We lost control</i>
  refill_message = $VESSEL batteries recharged$NEWLINE<i>The crew is allowed music again</i>|$VESSEL batteries recharged$NEWLINE<i>Systems are back online</i>
}

// OXYGEN
Rule
{
  name = Oxygen
  resource_name = Oxygen
  waste_name = CO2
  rate = 0.04629629 // 1000 per-day
  degeneration = 0.002083333 // 8 minutes
  on_pod = 5000.0
  on_eva = 100.0 // about 30min
  on_resque = 1000.0
  modifier = breathable

  warning_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL can't breathe
  danger_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is suffocating
  fatal_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL suffocated to death
  relax_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is breathing again

  low_message = Oxygen reserves are dangerously low on $VESSEL$NEWLINE<i>There is mild panic among the crew</i>
  empty_message = There is no more oxygen on $VESSEL$NEWLINE<i>Everybody stop breathing</i>
  refill_message = $VESSEL oxygen reserves restored$NEWLINE<i>The crew is taking a breather</i>
}

// QUALITY OF LIFE
Rule
{
  name = Stress
  degeneration = 0.00000086805 // 53 days
  variance = 0.33 // add per-kerbal variance
  modifier = qol
  breakdown = true // trigger breakdown event instead of death

  warning_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is losing $HIS_HER mind$NEWLINE<i>Concentration is becoming a problem</i>
  danger_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is about to breakdown$NEWLINE<i>Starting to hear voices</i>
  // no fatal_message because breakdown message is generated automatically
  // no relax_message because there is no recovery from stress
}

// RADIATION
Rule
{
  name = Radiation
  degeneration = 1.0 // just use the modifier
  variance = 0.1 // add per-kerbal variance
  modifier = radiation

  warning_threshold = 15.0 // in rad
  danger_threshold = 22.5 // in rad
  fatal_threshold = 30.0 // in rad

  warning_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL has been exposed to intense radiation
  danger_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL is reporting symptoms of radiation poisoning
  fatal_message = $ON_VESSEL$KERBAL died after being exposed to extreme radiation
  // no relax_message because there is no recovery from radiation
}

// ============================================================================
// Customize resource containers
// ============================================================================

@PART[kerbalism-food-*]
{
  @RESOURCE[Food]
  {
    @name = Food
    @amount *= 1.0
    @maxAmount *= 1.0
  }
}

@PART[kerbalism-oxygen-*]
{
  @RESOURCE[Oxygen]
  {
    @name = Oxygen
    @amount *= 1.0
    @maxAmount *= 1.0
  }
}

// ============================================================================
// Add scrubbers to pods
// ============================================================================

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleCommand],#CrewCapacity[>0]]
{
  MODULE
  {
    name = Scrubber

    // change scrubbed resource
    resource_name = Oxygen

    // change waste name
    waste_name = CO2

    // change ec/s per-crew
    ec_rate = 0.01
    @ec_rate *= #$/CrewCapacity$

    // change waste/s per-crew
    co2_rate = 0.04629629
    @co2_rate *= #$/CrewCapacity$
  }
}

// ============================================================================
// Customize greenhouse
// ============================================================================

@PART[Greenhouse]
{
  @MODULE[Greenhouse]
  {
    // change food resource
    @resource_name = Supplies

    // change waste resource
    @waste_name = Mulch

    // change ec rate for the lamps
    @ec_rate = 0.5

    // change waste rate
    @waste_rate = 0.00138888 // waste/s for crew of 3

    // change harvest size
    @harvest_size = 5000.0

    // change growth rate
    @growth_rate = 0.00000015432 // 300 days
  }
}

// ============================================================================
// Resources
// ============================================================================

// waste pseudo-resource
RESOURCE_DEFINITION

// waste pseudo-resource
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = CO2
  density = 0.0
  unitCost = 0.0
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = NONE
  isTweakable = false
  isVisible = false
}

// Removes food resource from all parts 

@PART[*]:FINAL { !RESOURCE[Food] {} } 

//Removes food parts 

!PART[kerbalism-food-*}:FINAL {}

Just replace this with the default one, which can be found at GameData/Kerbalism/Profiles

Just remember you will still have too worry about the extra features Kerbalism adds...

Climate Control, Oxygen EVA-LS, Quality of Life, Malfunctions, Signals, Radiation, Space Weather.

Feel free to modify at will and have fun with your new realistic KSP save with a bit of kerbalism from USI-LS (sorry for bad pun)

If you want to remove other Kerbalism feature  just delete the bit in the profile about it.

 

Hope I have been of help

Cheers Ben

[goldenpsp]

12 hours ago, tjt said:

Sure! can you please explain a bit more?

I just learned today that USI-LS doesn't properly report Supplies/energy use when the vessel is not active. RoverDude referred to it a problem with Catch-up mechanics. Kerbalism claims to have " coherent background simulation". If ShotgunNinja has figured out how to do it, I'm pretty sold on that. 

how's the performance these days.  IIRC the downside to Kerbalism's background simulations was a noticable performance hit.

[Tyko]

31 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

how's the performance these days.  IIRC the downside to Kerbalism's background simulations was a noticable performance hit.

hmmm..that's a good question. I'm in the midst of a long Career game. I can't uninstall USI-LS to compare because all of my craft have LS parts, so I'm not sure how I would do a comparison. Any ideas?

[RoverDude]

14 hours ago, tjt said:

Sure! can you please explain a bit more?

I just learned today that USI-LS doesn't properly report Supplies/energy use when the vessel is not active. RoverDude referred to it a problem with Catch-up mechanics. Kerbalism claims to have " coherent background simulation". If ShotgunNinja has figured out how to do it, I'm pretty sold on that. 

EDIT: @RoverDude and @Merkov clarified that while USI-LS doesn't accurately report when the craft is not active, the accounting is automatically corrected when you switch to the craft or every 6 hours when Catch-up mechanics happen. I didn't want to misrepresent USI-LS as being broken. It works correctly. It's just the reporting mechanism that's a bit wonky.

To be clear, this is not a problem - it's simply how stock works in order to keep things nice and performant, even with hundreds of craft all chock full of converters   i.e. - it works as intended, and without issue.  Visually showing this is really just a matter of extra code tbh (and my plate is a bit full).

The compromise Kerbalism makes is that it drops a lot of the stock mechanics in favor of an alternate model.  So as long as you don't use things that leverage some of the stock features such as dynamic efficiency, thermal, required resources, etc. you are ok.  But to be clear, it's definitely a compromise - there is no such thing as a free lunch (or free processing of hundreds of converters 50 times per second).