Maybe something useful for scientist

[delta144]

Apparently scientist become useless end game in career mode. So why not use them for trajectory calculations? You can upgrade one of the buildings that allow for trajectory calculations if a scientist is in there. The higher the level the more accurate, efficient and optional trajectories that you will get. Also a higher level means faster results (or having more than one). Scientist can only work out trajectories for places that you have already explored; meaning you still have to have fun exploring. To get a trajectory you can select the craft and then the orbit/land you wish to go to with in the building

[Guest]

tbh Kerbal "classes" just need to go away.  They provide no real benefit or interesting choices in gameplay.

[Armisael]

@OP: By the time you're in late game none of the classes do anything particularly useful. You have more money than god, plenty of time to do anything and everything, and probe cores that can steer perfectly and weigh less. Once you're in the sandbox phase you're really just doing things because they can. Also, please don't screw with trajectory calculations.

@regex Not true, in my opinion. They force you to consider the trade-off between bringing back less science, bringing more experiments, or bringing an extra pod with a scientist. Engineers are less useful in my experience, but faster mining and repacking parachutes has some minor value.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Armisael

[AbacusWizard]

I love the idea of kerbal classes; I just think they need more things to do, especially at higher levels. It does seem pretty clear that Squad's original plan was to fill in the details later (which is why the experience level system goes up to 5 but only has new abilities up to 3 so far).

• Pilots: completely useless as soon as you research a probe core better than the Stayputnik. Not sure what can be done about this other than making probe cores less useful. Perhaps pilots should be able to execute planned maneuvers automatically?

• Scientists: vital before you've finished the tech tree; useless as soon as you do. They ought to provide some sort of assistance with plotting trajectories or scanning planetary surfaces for resources or something.

• Engineers: I actually do find these incredibly handy for repacking parachutes. I often make landers intended to be used over and over again (to travel from an orbital station to the surface and back), and if I'm doing so on a planet with an atmosphere, I want the parachutes to be more than one-use-only. (It's also nice to be able to repair the landing legs or rover wheels if they hit the ground a little too hard.) And of course in KIS/KAS they're quite important too.

[MKI]

35 minutes ago, AbacusWizard said:

I love the idea of kerbal classes; I just think they need more things to do, especially at higher levels. It does seem pretty clear that Squad's original plan was to fill in the details later (which is why the experience level system goes up to 5 but only has new abilities up to 3 so far).

• Pilots: completely useless as soon as you research a probe core better than the Stayputnik. Not sure what can be done about this other than making probe cores less useful. Perhaps pilots should be able to execute planned maneuvers automatically?

• Scientists: vital before you've finished the tech tree; useless as soon as you do. They ought to provide some sort of assistance with plotting trajectories or scanning planetary surfaces for resources or something.

• Engineers: I actually do find these incredibly handy for repacking parachutes. I often make landers intended to be used over and over again (to travel from an orbital station to the surface and back), and if I'm doing so on a planet with an atmosphere, I want the parachutes to be more than one-use-only. (It's also nice to be able to repair the landing legs or rover wheels if they hit the ground a little too hard.) And of course in KIS/KAS they're quite important too.

Probes are going to get "nerfed" next patch once they add Remote control and what not. Lose your connection to your probe and your mission will fail. So using probes would be good for close range missions, but further out requires more planning. Defiantly enough to make Pilots better.

 

As said above currently Engineers are the least useful.

They are needed into endgame, but only are needed if you screw up. Nothing a little quick load wont fix most of the time. KAS or other similar mod would make them the most interesting IMO, but only if you need their skills for the mission at hand.

 

Scientists pretty much print money late game. They get you extra science through their abilities and late game when the tree is done that science can be transferred to cold hard cash. So really Scientists I find are the most useful during the tech tree, and are still the "cargo" of most of my manned launches. Even into end game, where I just really care about cash. So their usefulness is really based more on the difficulty setting into late game. 

 

So KAS integration makes Engineers useful even if nothing is broken, the new patch will nerf probes and thus make Pilots a good choice for important missions, and Scientists' usefulness is based entirely on if you need money or not. 

[Wjolcz]

The kerbal classes need either to be improved or, as regex said, they need to be removed.

If they won't be removed they should work like this imo:

Pilots: SAS and trajectories

Engineers: KIS and KAS

Scientists: Actual widgets when performing science experiments with knobs, buttons, microscopes and whatever a scientist might do to make the gathering science more fun instead of clicky.

[Guest]

Does anyone know how NASA or ESA or POCKOCMOC trains their astronauts?  Are there clear divisions like these or does everyone learn how to do everything?  I would think that space is not the kind of environment where one divvies up the training so clearly; if something goes wrong you would want anyone to be able to save the mission.  If there are any specialties I would imagine they would be between non-essential tasks like what kind of experiments are run during the mission, not between vital tasks like performing repairs or piloting a spacecraft.

Kerbal classes just smack of a feature waiting for an actual use.  Right now they sideline a lot of early game work and experience.

[Whirligig Girl]

12 hours ago, AbacusWizard said:

I love the idea of kerbal classes; I just think they need more things to do, especially at higher levels. It does seem pretty clear that Squad's original plan was to fill in the details later (which is why the experience level system goes up to 5 but only has new abilities up to 3 so far).

• Pilots: completely useless as soon as you research a probe core better than the Stayputnik. Not sure what can be done about this other than making probe cores less useful. Perhaps pilots should be able to execute planned maneuvers automatically?

• Scientists: vital before you've finished the tech tree; useless as soon as you do. They ought to provide some sort of assistance with plotting trajectories or scanning planetary surfaces for resources or something.

• Engineers: I actually do find these incredibly handy for repacking parachutes. I often make landers intended to be used over and over again (to travel from an orbital station to the surface and back), and if I'm doing so on a planet with an atmosphere, I want the parachutes to be more than one-use-only. (It's also nice to be able to repair the landing legs or rover wheels if they hit the ground a little too hard.) And of course in KIS/KAS they're quite important too.

How to make pilots better:

 

Actually do simulate comms delay and comms blackouts. During a re-entry, when out of range of a commsat, or when they second-long delay becomes a problem, the only way to control probes would be via manuever nodes. You plot a maneuver node, and the probe does it automatically. But you can only do manuever nodes. Maybe a suicide-burn button for landings, but that's it. Otherwise you control with lightspeed delay (actually 1/10 lightspeed due to the small scale solar system). The comms delay could be toggled in game settings when starting a new save game, so you don't have to deal with it.

Here's where pilots come in. They don't have a control blackout when re-entering, when behind the Mun, or when out at Eeloo. They also have no control delay. A Spacecraft with a trained pilot can fly the ship anywhere with no regard to pre-planning. Plus landings are a lot easier when you have more control. Pilots can also act as a tracking station for probes, extending their range (in the Jool system if you have probes, you have to wait several minutes for a control input to be taken, but if you have a mothership at Laythe and a probe at Bop you will only have a few seconds of delay) and controlling them remotely. (This mechanic is already going to be implemented in 1.1, just without the control delay mechanic. The important part is control delay.) That is how to truly make Kerbal pilots much better than probes.

[Armisael]

52 minutes ago, regex said:

Does anyone know how NASA or ESA or POCKOCMOC trains their astronauts?  Are there clear divisions like these or does everyone learn how to do everything?  I would think that space is not the kind of environment where one divvies up the training so clearly; if something goes wrong you would want anyone to be able to save the mission.  If there are any specialties I would imagine they would be between non-essential tasks like what kind of experiments are run during the mission, not between vital tasks like performing repairs or piloting a spacecraft.

NASA has three classes: Commander and Pilot, Mission Specialist, and Payload specialist.

[Andem]

7 hours ago, regex said:

Does anyone know how NASA or ESA or POCKOCMOC trains their astronauts?  Are there clear divisions like these or does everyone learn how to do everything?  I would think that space is not the kind of environment where one divvies up the training so clearly; if something goes wrong you would want anyone to be able to save the mission.  If there are any specialties I would imagine they would be between non-essential tasks like what kind of experiments are run during the mission, not between vital tasks like performing repairs or piloting a spacecraft.

Kerbal classes just smack of a feature waiting for an actual use.  Right now they sideline a lot of early game work and experience.

Typically people have two specialties, e.g., Engineer/Botonist, Commander/Geologist, Doctor/EVA Expert, Chemist/Physicist, etc.

[AbacusWizard]

11 hours ago, Andem said:

Typically people have two specialties, e.g., Engineer/Botonist, Commander/Geologist, Doctor/EVA Expert, Chemist/Physicist, etc.

Those specific pairings sound awfully familiar. I bet they'd make for a great mission to Duna.

[mattssheep4]

21 hours ago, Armisael said:

NASA has three classes: Commander and Pilot, Mission Specialist, and Payload specialist.

Apparently Payload Specialist is no longer a thing (since the retirement of the space shuttle).

[tater]

I'm with reggae, the classes are pretty dumb. If we had Kerbals that were actually autonomous, then they might be useful. 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, tater said:

I'm with reggae, the classes are pretty dumb.

Ya mon.

[tater]

LOL, autocorrect does something cool for a change.

[Skalou]

i like the  specialists from a game-play point of view, and they can all drive the ship so it's Ok,

I prefer playing with a complementary team instead of 1 Super-Kerman, and if there is some limitations to bring every-one having to choose.

The 1.1 with the new relay system will maybe give a higher role to pilot by allowing them to remotely drive the probes too, so it will be even better for me. (nd with KIS!!)

[tater]

What KSP needs is autonomous kerbals.

I'm in the camp that would want them to optionally even pilot, but forget that for now. Let's stick with Science and Engineering (skills are a thing, and unlikely to go away).

Scientists should EVA when landed, autonomously---there would be a toggle to turn this behavior on and off on the craft's right click. Their skill would not be increased via flag planting, but "doing science." So they'd EVA, and walk around. Perhaps they are given props like little shovels, etc. Instead of clicking to collect a surface sample, they walk around themselves and do so. They'd wander as far as a few hundred meters and do stuff. Perhaps they could be given some new experiment parts, and instead of current clickfest, they'd go to that part (must be put within a couple meters of the ground on lander), collect the experiment, and walk off and place it. Maybe things like the seismometer get placed on the ground instead of the craft? You get the idea. If there is a science lab, they will EVA now and again to get stuff "for science!" Does it do anything? Not really, it's what we have now, but it creates some atmosphere. While you run around with Jeb taking screen shots near a rock, Edmark is in the background doing stuff. In space, they could EVA on tether and look busy.

Engineers could EVA with a drill (like KIS/KAS) and maintain stuff when this is turned on, both in space and on the ground. Perhaps a new "docking" part could be added. It would be very thin and would snap to angle (you'd need to rotate to within a few degrees, then it snaps). Having done this, you set engineers to EVA, and their maintenance function has them weld those parts over time. Maybe they have little arc welders. So you approach a station or large ship under construction, and you might see a few engineers moving around doing stuff.

This would be almost entirely for immersion, but it would be neat to see.

Edited February 1, 2016 by tater

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I think the classes are a good thing, they are a logistical challenge which IMO adds to the game in a positive way.

Scientists are cool, resetting experiments and the mobile lab work are pretty useful.

[tater]

Yeah, but the skill levels are sort of dumb. Astronauts are trained for whatever it is they need to do. If the point of an engineer is to repair, it's bizarre that I need to have them plant flags, or leave kerbin SoI, then return to "level up."

 

[KerikBalm]

Scientists are for fund farming late in the game. (science to fund conversions). I can ignore contracts and make a mission to wherever i want, and run a profit if my mission includes a science lab, experiments, and some leveled up scientists : provided the launch costs are low enough (SSTO'd under 200 funds/ton), it doesn't take so long in game time to turn a profit, at least in relation to transfer times and tranfer window periods.

Engineers are for chute repacks and ore farming late in the game. strut repairs and wheel repairs are nice, but not needed all that much if quickload is enabled

Pilots are for... saving 0.05 tons on a probe and the solar panel to run it...

Once 1.1 hits, they are for remotely piloting other probes/acting as a control point. They all have/will have uses. As far as the gameplay? well it does make for some design decisions. For instance. I made an ISRU biome hoppe to finish off the science I missed on my first pass mun biome harvesting missions. I wanted mat and goo bays: need a scientist. I wanted ISRU that didn't take years: needs an engineer.

Thus I had to design a 2 kerbal lander, whereas my earlier biome hoppers docked with orbiting fuel depots, and were scientist only.

After 1.1, I'll have to plan to have a pilot in orbit for remote control? or at least for a similar mission around ike/moho/wherever?

 

[Waxing_Kibbous]

1 hour ago, tater said:

Yeah, but the skill levels are sort of dumb. Astronauts are trained for whatever it is they need to do. If the point of an engineer is to repair, it's bizarre that I need to have them plant flags, or leave kerbin SoI, then return to "level up."

 

It's just the way games work- why do wizards have to kill so many orcs to learn a spell when they should just be studying? Going off to slay some world destroying baddie with Fire1 and 15MP at their disposal Many of these things concerning crew bugged me at first, but with more hours in game I have come to appreciate the game elements of KSP. One thing I didn't like about science mode was that it was too easy getting handed 5 star Kerbals for free, felt a bit cheap for how I play this game.

[Admac]

I wish that it wasn't only unique things that leveled up kerbals though, like 10 mun missions should be worth more than 2 measly stars, and being passenger on a jool flyby ought not to be worth 5.

Also; by the time I have any 5 star astronauts, the game is basically over already. I suppose I send out 2-3 missions at a time though.

If I were king of the world, slight diminishing returns for repeated activities would still count for XP. doing to LKO -> mun route a few times should be worth at least 4 stars. doing 5 landings on Duna and Ike should be enough for the little guy to be 5 stars, even if it's on one extended mission. I suppose I only care about the crew since EPL and USI have mechanics that reward better crew pretty strongly.

 

 

[Wjolcz]

2 hours ago, Admac said:

I wish that it wasn't only unique things that leveled up kerbals though, like 10 mun missions should be worth more than 2 measly stars, and being passenger on a jool flyby ought not to be worth 5.

Also; by the time I have any 5 star astronauts, the game is basically over already. I suppose I send out 2-3 missions at a time though.

If I were king of the world, slight diminishing returns for repeated activities would still count for XP. doing to LKO -> mun route a few times should be worth at least 4 stars. doing 5 landings on Duna and Ike should be enough for the little guy to be 5 stars, even if it's on one extended mission. I suppose I only care about the crew since EPL and USI have mechanics that reward better crew pretty strongly.

 

 

I feel like the XP system should be more of an indication of where a certain astronaut went and what he/she did. Nothing else. All the abilities should be available from the start. Real space agencies don't send random and untrained people in space.

-Houston, one of my tyres went flat. There's no way I can go back to base on foot. My oxygen will run out before I get there.
-Well, that's like... your problem man.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Veeltch

[Skalou]

31 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

I feel like the XP system should be more of an indication of where a certain astronaut went and what he/she did. Nothing else. All the abilities should be available from the start. Real space agencies don't send random and untrained people in space.

-Houston, one of my tyres went flat. There's no way I can go back to base on foot. My oxygen will run out before I get there.
-Well, that's like... your problem man.

the mission where choosen to  be able to go back to the lander by foot in case of rover failure.

What a better training than doing real job on terrain? you can't replace experience, but you need some teaching too.

What i think now: an other "astraunaut complex" upgrade that allow the crew to upgrade there level in flight in the lab (or in an other new part: the correspondence school), to be balanced with some stuff (ressources and time consumption, need of a big communication network,  need of a higher level than you in the ship, etc...).

Admac  On my side i prefer that the game force myself to continue to explore new place , but i understand your point of view.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Skalou

[Wjolcz]

37 minutes ago, Skalou said:

the mission where choosen to  be able to go back to the lander by foot in case of rover failure.

I wasn't refering to any real life mission.

 

37 minutes ago, Skalou said:

What a better training than doing real job on terrain? you can't replace experience, but you need some teaching too.

No doubt. But it could also be solved in a sane way. The only crew members that I see having any benefit from in-the-field-training would be scientists - not pilots. "Hey guys, check this out! With all this dust on my spacesuit and a rock in the pocket I can totally SAS this thing!"

 

37 minutes ago, Skalou said:

What i think now: an other "astraunaut complex" upgrade that allow the crew to upgrade there level in flight in the lab (or in an other new part: the correspondence school), to be balanced with some stuff (ressources and time consumption, need of a big communication network,  need of a higher level than you in the ship, etc...).

Why not give that ability to the R&D building? I'm sure they have a spare pool or a vacuum chamber they are not using at the moment.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Veeltch