What happens at the edge of the universe

[PB666]

On 3/5/2016 at 5:05 PM, sevenperforce said:

At certain times in the past, the universe expanded faster than the speed of light, and so this is not possible. 

If you could travel faster than light you would go back in time. 

If you could "jump" past the observable edge of the universe, you would reach regions of the universe that have been separated from our immediate vicinity ever since inflation began.

1. Parts of the universe are _Still_ traveling away from each other at faster than the speed of light the are also expanding more rapidly due to negative energy, we cannot see them, we can only see to the limit of the CMBR.

2. The universe did not expand faster than the speed of light, technically it inflated, cosmic inflation is a process in which a massless universe creates our equivalent of volume; the problem is that definitions of space and time, in fact space-time itself was not much of a useful commodity. Quantum universe is peculiar in that objects can travel very fast in small space, there is no particular acceleration limit, the problem is this is limited to volumes in the planks scale. 

3. We can only imagine an edge because we are obviously not the edge, the universe itself is supposed to be about 92 billion light years across, in fact this is a minimum it can be larger.

4. I would guess that the edge of the universe is occupied by low energy photons spreading at light speed radially, having red shifted out of the annihilation range, forever traveling outward radially, this is prolly followed be a slew of neutrinos and then highly diffuse antimatter matter, some stable exotic particles. The issue here is that by being on the outside that means that the largest vector component of velocity is radial, otherwise they would undergo friction or Em/matter interactions, or Em/Em interactions. Thus the remainder, lets say 300 billion light years, traveling radially the density of energy in that space is on the order of 1/100. . . . . 000 of the space at CMBR which means matter and light are too diffuse to interact. If and exotic particle decays it decays into energy that still moves out.

5. At the very edge there is supposedly the propogating higgs field and every now and then a photon.

[sevenperforce]

Just now, PB666 said:

I would guess that the edge of the universe is occupied by low energy photons spreading at light speed radially, having red shifted out of the annihilation range, forever traveling outward radially, this is prolly followed be a slew of neutrinos and then highly diffuse antimatter matter, some stable exotic particles. The issue here is that by being on the outside that means that the largest vector component of velocity is radial, otherwise they would undergo friction or Em/matter interactions, or Em/Em interactions. Thus the remainder, lets say 300 billion light years, traveling radially the density of energy in that space is on the order of 1/100. . . . . 000 of the space at CMBR which means matter and light are too diffuse to interact. If and exotic particle decays it decays into energy that still moves out.

At the very edge there is supposedly the propogating higgs field and every now and then a photon.

There's no reason to think that any edge exists. 

[PB666]

3 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

There's no reason to think that any edge exists. 

There's lots of reasons, the question is not whether edge exist, but whether uniformity in CMBR is persistent in all the views of the universe, from a scientific point of view even though we do know per fact that CMBR is a view limitation, not a universe limitation, we cannot argue beyond it, but that does not mean there is good reason to think that other views of the universe exist. 

 

[HebaruSan]

1 hour ago, parameciumkid said:

But if the universe IS infinite...
It's been known and thoroughly studied that the universe has a minimum possible distance, and that particles' energy states come in discrete and limited values. Thus any given finite volume of space can only contain a finite number of possible configurations of matter and energy - a huge number, but finite nonetheless. So there's only a finite number of unique cubic meters of space, for example.
So if the universe goes forever, you'd inevitably start finding the same cubic meters of space over and over again. Eventually, you'll run into an exact duplicate of yourself - and then an exact duplicate of Earth. In fact there'd be an infinite number of these.

How many of them would be within our observable universe?

[sevenperforce]

3 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

How many of them would be within our observable universe?

Statistically, none.

[WinkAllKerb'']

'yawn'

universe is finite
time is finite

human are immortal
plant are immortal
Atom are immortal

the earth evolution never happened

the primodial soup ocean only has one single monocellular entity and never met another one

[insert change size scale here]
[insert change time scale here]
[insert human rule the universe and are superior to everithing whatever here]

[remove sarcasme and irony]
[let simmer]
[enjoy]

then you can go watch the trueman show or your favorite tv show or play KSP
 

Edited March 8, 2016 by WinkAllKerb''

[Starshipcaptain16]

What if we consider the particle horizon the "edge" and assume the universe is finite and flat?

[PB666]

16 hours ago, Starshipcaptain16 said:

What if we consider the particle horizon the "edge" and assume the universe is finite and flat?

Because we know that conclusion is invalid. Hubble keeps seeing beyond the edge. Beyond the CMBR there's the neutrino horizon, beyond that if you had sensitive enough equipment there is an exotic particle horizon and so on.

Lets get to the crux. The problem is not the edge; the problem is inflation, this ties into the other thread. Theoretical time zero is a hypothetical time point we can never see in front of, it goes like this

Quantum universe - in so called because its either a singularity itself or its a singularity that has begun to disintegrate. Its state is define by non-quantitizable length and time

Gravity breaking - Time 0 - quantum gravity gives rise to essences of what we call space-time. The basic problem is the gravitational constant is probably not the one we use and Planck's length is probably not the length scale and if you had a cesium clock (impossible with laws of that time) it would not be ticking at the current rate. The high density of energy warps space, but there is no matter, it is not confined. We get out of this inflation

Inflation - expansion transition - the previous state is one of either observing or being, you could observe as an outsider an expansion, but as an insider literally you would have to actually be the expansion, since the first defies the definition of universe its impossible (not to mention perilous) and the second is that singularities cannot both observe and exist. As a universe type singularity its entire lot of information is within an infinite energy density and a set of properties we do not understand (temperatures have no meaning on our scales, matter cannot exist . . . .). Unless a model of a multiverse exists the singularity cannot ever be observed. Then the question is what is the inflationary state, is it a quantum expression of a singularity?

The question is not trivial because if inflation is simply a distorted dying gasp of a quantum singularity then if you do not observe the edge of the universe then it can never be observed, not that it does not exist. There are at least a couple of good reasons. 1st the distortion in formative space-time is inflation which means comoving space is limited to scales smaller than planck's length. As these scales stretch apart they inflate more space and so on, until the most opposed points are moving away from each other >6c (this is not objects moving, but comoving space is moving, there is no rest mass, and energy pours into the comoving space as it forms - still quantum properties of the universe). The space you exist then is either then edge or not edge, if its not edge it will never be edge, because your reference frame is locked into a comoving space if the universe is say 100U in area and only things within 1U length from the edge can view light from the edge, then the 30 interior units say that the universe is boundless in all directions, and no observation they can ever make would convince them otherwise. 

CMBR makes this worse, because it delays the time by which we can see edge things, not only do we have to deal with spatial distortions caused by inflation, but with millions of years of expansion so instead of 70/100 ths of the particles having a view of the edge, now only 30/100ths have a view.

The particles on the edge, most likely see nothing, they never progress beyond the simplist.

By the fact that we see CMBR across the horizon tells us we were never near the edge, that we will never see the edge and it does one other thing to our vision . . . . .

Just about everything above I wrote is speculation because the veil of CMBR makes it the last observable point in the universe, unless you are a neutrino counter, in which case you can see ever so slightly before, and everything that happened before and further away is just speculation. We have a Cheshire universe, either the edge exists or does not, if you do not observe the edge it still might have existed.

 

 

 

 

 

[sevenperforce]

Actually the CMBR only obscures the first 300,000 years, but your point remains. 

The only possibility for us to "see" beyond our region of the 'verse would be if there were local anisotropies present during the inflationary epoch which would be exhibited on a macroscopic scale now. But so far we haven't seen any. 

[Navy2k]

If i understand it corectly the most experts believe its something like this in 3 dimensions, so its closed on its own and if you alway went on straight (from your perspective) you could come back to where you startet.

 

 .

[PB666]

8 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Actually the CMBR only obscures the first 300,000 years, but your point remains. 

The only possibility for us to "see" beyond our region of the 'verse would be if there were local anisotropies present during the inflationary epoch which would be exhibited on a macroscopic scale now. But so far we haven't seen any. 

Think about it like this in the first few billionths of a second the universe expands to opposing vectors of at least 6c, at that point its maximum size is 0.05m, after 380,000 years the bounds of the expansion are now 380,000 x 10¹⁶ x 6 in diameter minimally and its all pretty much curved space time. That is roughly 10²² times large than the inflation that is inflation, and at the edge there is less pressure so you can get expansion on top of inflation. The problem is that while relatively close things in our epoch say 200,000 light years away are somewhat red-shifted a distance of a couple hundred thousand years is going to completely redshifted to nothing. Light that leave point x needs to travel not to me but toward a point in front of me, so that the hypotenuse that it travels is actually a vector that is faster than c, it never reaches me, at infinite time frame some of this light reaches but by that point is so dim and red-shifted it would be difficult to detect.

[Octa]

I imagine this is like flat landers who consider their world as an ever expanding 2D-cycle discussing about the edge of that circle as the border of their world, while they're actually living on the surface of an expanding sphere. North pole is the center, the "border" is at the equator....