I'm curious.. Any dog trainers in the KSP forums?

[SlabGizor117]

I've picked up dog training as a hobby with The Koehler Method   (http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/) and I'd like to see if there's anyone around the KSP forums who does dog training too.  If I have an interest in something, one of my favorite things is to talk about it and discuss it, and I wanted to find someone who'd like to do the same.

So yeah, anyone around here who does dog training too?

 

[Tex Mechs Robot]

I haven't used this method. I am getting a Labrador puppy in about 2 months though and have been thinking about how to train him for apartment living. I'll look into this method as an option going forward. Do you have any experiences to share?

[SlabGizor117]

Sure!  My experience with the Koehler Method has thoroughly convinced me that it's the best method there is for training a dog.  What impresses me about it is this:

If you haven't trained dogs before, you may not know this, but there are two schools of thought on it.  One is positive reinforcement, whose trainers believe it necessary to make training a game, and make it all fun.  It uses nothing but treats and praise for training.  The second is primarily aversive, or even balanced trainers, who use positive reinforcement as well as(as the Koehler Method book puts it), "allowing the dog the birthright he shares with all of God's creatures, the right to the consequences of his own actions".  But beyond that, what really impresses me about the Koehler method is that he escaped the "Us vs. Them"  mentality and stepped back to look at the big picture and said, "No, you're all wrong, this is how it should be".  That really impresses me to see that Bill Koehler(the author) stepped away from "Us" AND "Them" to do his own research and come to his own conclusions, without the bias of the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude.  

 

For example, i saw a positive reinforcement website complaining about aversive methods.  The scenario they gave was an aversive trainer teaching a dog to heel.  The dog sees someone else walking their dog and breaks the heel position to go see the dog.  The trainer then pops the leash to pull the dog back to the heel position to correct that.  The website then says, "Now the dog has learned that bad things happen when there's a dog around".  First of all, that's one of the most degrading things to a dog's intelligence that I have ever heard, but that's another conversation.  The problem there, though, is that the dog learns what that leash pop was for when he breaks heel to go to just a person on a walk, or a car, going by.  

Furthermore, I don't even agree that that's how you would correct a dog leading ahead out of the heel position, and this is what impresses me.  The correction for forging ahead is a right about turn and a run, that shows the dog, when he hits the end of the leash, "Oh- the trainer went that way, I guess I'll have to stay next to m to be warned when he turns around so that that doesn't happen."  Now when you put the Koehler Method as a whole, focusing on each detail of it like this, up to the microscope, and you see the effect that it has, you can tell right away, that the right about turn, and every other detail of this method, was very meticulously thought out, with planning and no bias.  So. That's what I mean when I say that it impresses me to see someone say, "No, you're all wrong", because it proves that their thinking is unbiased.

So if you're interested in learning more about the method, and training your dog with it, go to the Koehler website linked in the OP and check it out.  If you'd like to buy the book, you'll have to look it up(The Koehler Method of Dog Training) on Amazon or eBay to buy, because it's unfortunately out of print.  There are a lot of 1 star reviews by misinformed Social Justice Warrriors who would sign a petition for the book to be banned, but most haven't even read it, so I promise you there's no validity to their argument.

Let me know what you think, and if you have any questions, feel free to message me.  This post was written on mobile though, and I don't have the time to proofread it, so let me know if anything needs clarifying.

Thanks!

[Tex Mechs Robot]

8 minutes ago, SlabGizor117 said:

Let me know what you think, and if you have any questions, feel free to message me.  This post was written on mobile though, and I don't have the time to proofread it, so let me know if anything needs clarifying.

I'm amazed you wrote that on a mobile device lol. I stick to 140 characters when I'm on mine!

I did go to the website and it all seems to make a lot of sense really. I've got tons of time to think about it. I likely won't buy the book because I don't have a ton of time to read. They recommended a DVD set though that interests me because of how closely they say it follows the book and the visual learning will be easier for me to jump in and out of over then next couple of months. The title is "Back to Work" by Margot Woods. Have you seen this?

[SlabGizor117]

I do know of it, but only through the website, same as you..  I haven't watched it.  So, unfortunately, I can't tell you whether it would have enough information for you to take from it and train your own dog.  Regardless, I would buy the book anyways, you can get it around $5-$10(assuming you're in the US, I don't know what it would be otherwise) on Amazon.  It's about 200 pages, not overly long, so I wouldn't be concerned about having time to read it.  My concern with the DVDs is that it may merely demonstrate, not teach, how to use the method.  I may be wrong, but there's also some very valuable information as to the nature and "why" of the method in the first part, that isn't anything to do with training.  If you have time for the DVDs, you'll definitely have time for the book.  You could do either and get by well enough I suppose, but I enjoy Bill Koehler's writing style and it made it easier to read as a result.  Also, he makes a lot of very good, fascinating points in the book that may not be in the DVDs either.  But again, your choice.  Maybe the DVDs will be easier for you to learn visually, I don't know.

Anlther thing, you talked about "jumping in and out" of it, and I should tell you that if you plan to train your dog by this method, you'll need to dedicate 6 days a week for 13 weeks to training, and stick to the schedule so that the learning process doesn't have any breaks in it.  It's a big commitment, as the website says, but the payoff is immense.  The Koehler Method is the first method I've seen that doesn't teach your dog to Heel, Sit, Down, Stand(and stay for those last three), and Come.

The Koehler Method teaches you and your dog how to have a fulfilling, close companionship, without contention, by using the "Heel, Sit, Down, Stand, and Come" exercises.  It's not a method for teaching your dog to do these "tricks" and maybe you'll find use for it around the home, it's a method for bettering your relationship with your dog, and it is the most effective method for the latter I have ever seen.  The term "well-trained" used in dog training classes, purebred dog ads, and adoption shelters, is a joke.  One of the best quotes I've ever heard in dog training is, "No dog is fully trained until it can be trusted at liberty regardless of distractions."  And something I would like to add to those who would label dog training this involved and in-depth, a boot camp made to produce an army dog incapable of love, and at attention at all times:  Dog training is not a restriction of freedom, but a tool to allow the dog to enjoy it's right to freedom without fear of consequences.  That is, if an untrained dog gets out of the backyard and runs away, it has taken its freedom and there will be consequences.  So if you love your dog, you would train him to the point that he would, once again, enjoy his right to freedom;  Freedom of exploration, and freedom of the right to the consequences of his actions, both good and bad.

Edited March 10, 2016 by SlabGizor117

[Tex Mechs Robot]

13 minutes ago, SlabGizor117 said:

I do know of it, but only through the website, same as you..  I haven't watched it.  So, unfortunately, I can't tell you whether it would have enough information for you to take from it and train your own dog.  Regardless, I would buy the book anyways, you can get it around $5-$10(assuming you're in the US, I don't know what it would be otherwise) on Amazon.  It's about 200 pages, not overly long, so I wouldn't be concerned about having time to read it.  My concern with the DVDs is that it may merely demonstrate, not teach, how to use the method.  I may be wrong, but there's also some very valuable information as to the nature and "why" of the method in the first part, that isn't anything to do with training.  If you have time for the DVDs, you'll definitely have time for the book.  You could do either and get by well enough I suppose, but I enjoy Bill Koehler's writing style and it made it easier to read as a result.  Also, he makes a lot of very good, fascinating points in the book that may not be in the DVDs either.  But again, your choice.  Maybe the DVDs will be easier for you to learn visually, I don't know.

Anlther thing, you talked about "jumping in and out" of it, and I should tell you that if you plan to train your dog by this method, you'll need to dedicate 6 days a week for 13 weeks to training, and stick to the schedule so that the learning process doesn't have any breaks in it.  It's a big commitment, as the website says, but the payoff is immense.  The Koehler Method is the first method I've seen that doesn't teach your dog to Heel, Sit, Down, Stand(and stay for those last three), and Come.

The Koehler Method teaches you and your dog how to have a fulfilling, close companionship, without contention, by using the "Heel, Sit, Down, Stand, and Come" exercises.  It's not a method for teaching your dog to do these "tricks" and maybe you'll find use for it around the home, it's a method for bettering your relationship with your dog, and it is the most effective method for the latter I have ever seen.  The term "well-trained" used in dog training classes, purebred dog ads, and adoption shelters, is a joke.  One of the best quotes I've ever heard in dog training is, "No dog is fully trained until it can be trusted at liberty regardless of distractions."  And something I would like to add to those who would label dog training this involved and in-depth, a boot camp made to produce an army dog incapable of love, and at attention at all times:  Dog training is not a restriction of freedom, but a tool to allow the dog to enjoy it's right to freedom without fear of consequences.  That is, if an untrained dog gets out of the backyard and runs away, it has taken its freedom and there will be consequences.  So if you love your dog, you would train him to the point that he would, once again, enjoy his right to freedom;  Freedom of exploration, and freedom of the right to the consequences of his actions, both good and bad.

Thanks for the insight. The "jumping in and out of it" was referring to the next 2 months while I learn and prepare for the arrival of the puppy and not the actual training. I can see how that was misleading at first and you're absolutely right, the consistency during training is a HUGE factor.

You've convinced me to get the book as well so maybe I can find a copy of it somewhere and use the DVD as a supplement to see the principles in action.

[SlabGizor117]

Ahh, ok.  Yeah, consistency is a huge thing in dog training.  I'm glad to see that you're gonna get the book too, you can find it on amazon pretty easily.  Like I said before, it should be around $5-$10 not including shipping.  I'm glad to see you're interested, you'll have to let me know what you think of it as you read it.  I'll send you a friend request too, and if you ever have any questions, I'd love to answer them.

[KaleDgs]

You can also find a solution online like a training program or a dog training expert. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by KaleDgs

[Spacescifi]

On 3/10/2016 at 12:55 PM, SlabGizor117 said:

 One of the best quotes I've ever heard in dog training is, "No dog is fully trained until it can be trusted at liberty regardless of distractions."  And something I would like to add to those who would label dog training this involved and in-depth, a boot camp made to produce an army dog incapable of love, and at attention at all times:  Dog training is not a restriction of freedom, but a tool to allow the dog to enjoy it's right to freedom without fear of consequences.  That is, if an untrained dog gets out of the backyard and runs away, it has taken its freedom and there will be consequences.  So if you love your dog, you would train him to the point that he would, once again, enjoy his right to freedom;  Freedom of exploration, and freedom of the right to the consequences of his actions, both good and bad.

 

Profound.

 

That logic applies to humans as well.

Probably the main difference between us and them is that they lack the faculty of conscience.

So thus the logic you said applies even more so to them.

As for humans, they often justify or make excuses for what they do, but it does not change the logic.