Translational Control

[texasflyboy]

Hi Everyone,

I've seen some pretty awesome custom control panels but can't seem to find specific hardware solutions for translational (up, down, left, right, forward, backward) control. Ideally, a three axis joystick would be perfect for this, but I've never seen one available to the general public. The closest I've seen is what we used for the space shuttle, but just can't seem to find any available salvage hardware

I'd love to see any I've missed over the years, please post below. I'd also love to see people's ideas for alternative methods of translational control. 

I think the general idea would be to provide for intuitive 3-dimensional control in a single controller. Also keep in mind that the controller only needs to have discrete (on/off) control rather than proportional control typically found in joysticks. 

Send your ideas!

 

Jon 

 

[Pixel of Life]

You could take one of these:

And mount it "sideways" (top of the stick points towards you instead of up) on a pair of (wheeled) drawer rails with strong springs to return it to the center position. Then replace the two big buttons with heavy duty microswitches, one in front of the moving part and one behind it so that they're activated when you push the stick forward or pull it back. What you'll end up with is a 6-axis translation control like the ones used on real spacecraft. For extra realism, replace the spherical knob with a T-shaped one.

Edited March 28, 2016 by CaptainKorhonen

[Red Iron Crown]

http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse/spacenavigator.html

Analog rather than on/off, well supported by KSP (on Windows at least), permits attitude and translation control in one hand for either the vessel or camera (and you can switch on the fly). Also great fun in Google Maps and really useful in 3D modeling apps. A bit on the pricey side, though.

[nukeboyt]

I use an x-box controller for PC.  I have the D-pad setup for left-right / up-down translation.  And the "Y" button for forward and "A" for backwards.   This works very well (for me).

 

[JohnnyPanzer]

32 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse/spacenavigator.html

Analog rather than on/off, well supported by KSP (on Windows at least), permits attitude and translation control in one hand for either the vessel or camera (and you can switch on the fly). Also great fun in Google Maps and really useful in 3D modeling apps. A bit on the pricey side, though.

Thanks a lot, now I gotta change pants.

[Draco T stand-up guy]

I just bought myself one of these from Logitech for the purpose. Seems to have all the necessary controls in all the right places and it's wireless. Now I hope it'll work (hasn't been delivered yet).

[Curveball Anders]

18 hours ago, nukeboyt said:

I use an x-box controller for PC.  I have the D-pad setup for left-right / up-down translation.  And the "Y" button for forward and "A" for backwards.   This works very well (for me).

I use an X-box controller for my PC too.

Slightly different setup but having 2 thumb sticks plus d-pad is lowly.

And even more lovely is that it doesn't clog up my already clogged up desk ...

[RW-1]

With my CH Products setup, (fighter stick, pro throttle and pro pedals) I use the micro joystick on my pro throttle to perform 4 out of the 6 translation functions, leaving the joystick itself to continue to be rotational. for forward and aft translation I use another switch nearby on the throttle, and find the setup works well.

Nothing beats the shuttles translation controller

 

Go here though and translate:

http://sergiocurci.blogspot.com.es/

 

Sergio built one for Orbiter, no reason it cant work for KSP as well.

Edited March 29, 2016 by RW-1

[texasflyboy]

Ok so here's the plan, no promises on a timeline. Though I think this is pretty achievable: 

1) Arcade style joystick (uses microswitches on each axis) ($6): 

2) Push/pull the entire assembly on spring loaded rails (yet to be designed in detail). Right now this is the "hard" part ($5). 

3) Arduino Micro will take the switch command and translate them into keyboard commands. This handy little board also has USB built in so the computer will see it as a keyboard ($25): 

4) Package everything into a clean little box ($5):

 

5) Install in some awesome desktop console with my X-55 and Tesoro keyboard. Total cost for controller, approximately $41. 

7 minutes ago, RW-1 said:

With my CH Products setup, (fighter stick, pro throttle and pro pedals) I use the micro joystick on my pro throttle to perform 4 out of the 6 translation functions, leaving the joystick itself to continue to be rotational. for forward and aft translation I use another switch nearby on the throttle, and find the setup works well.

Nothing beats the shuttles translation controller

 

Go here though and translate:

http://sergiocurci.blogspot.com.es/

 

Sergio built one for Orbiter, no reason it cant work for KSP as well.

Yes, I've been talking with Sergio over the years and I think he's the only one with a proven solution. See above, I'm planning to do something similar but using an Arduino instead of a keyboard controller. 

[RW-1]

5 minutes ago, texasflyboy said:

Ok so here's the plan, no promises on a timeline. Though I think this is pretty achievable: 

1) Arcade style joystick (uses microswitches on each axis) ($6): 

2) Push/pull the entire assembly on spring loaded rails (yet to be designed in detail). Right now this is the "hard" part ($5). 

3) Arduino Micro will take the switch command and translate them into keyboard commands. This handy little board also has USB built in so the computer will see it as a keyboard ($25): 

4) Package everything into a clean little box ($5):

 

5) Install in some awesome desktop console with my X-55 and Tesoro keyboard. Total cost for controller, approximately $41. 

Yes, I've been talking with Sergio over the years and I think he's the only one with a proven solution. See above, I'm planning to do something similar but using an Arduino instead of a keyboard controller. 

I would have thought at some point CH Products could have designed something along those lines, but they went in a different direction gaming wise ...

 

Planning on 4 rails on it for stability and just use one for the switch contacts, etc. ?

Edited March 29, 2016 by RW-1

[stibbons]

The closest I've ever seen is 4-axis sticks like this, with standard analogue X and Y axes, a rotational Z axis and push button.

I ended up using two small digital sticks in my controller, here's what they looked like in an early prototype enclosure:

The right hand stick acts like a full 8-way controller for X-Y control, while the left hand stick has a gate restricting it to forwards and backwards movement only for Z control. (I'm thinking of replacing it with a 4-way gate to add rotational control)

While the sticks are digital only, the potentiometer next to the right hand side there controls the intensity of the signal sent, a lot like engaging fine control mode with caps lock, but much finer grained. It's a setup that deliberately looks a little cumbersome, but works pretty well for fine orbital maneuvering.

[texasflyboy]

4 minutes ago, stibbons said:

The closest I've ever seen is 4-axis sticks like this, with standard analogue X and Y axes, a rotational Z axis and push button.

I ended up using two small digital sticks in my controller, here's what they looked like in an early prototype enclosure:

The right hand stick acts like a full 8-way controller for X-Y control, while the left hand stick has a gate restricting it to forwards and backwards movement only for Z control. (I'm thinking of replacing it with a 4-way gate to add rotational control)

While the sticks are digital only, the potentiometer next to the right hand side there controls the intensity of the signal sent, a lot like engaging fine control mode with caps lock, but much finer grained. It's a setup that deliberately looks a little cumbersome, but works pretty well for fine orbital maneuvering.

Your panels are pretty awesome. Yours are actually a lot of the motivation to try some of my own. I'll start simple with this THC but would love to move to more complicated ones like you're building. 

Who manufactures your panels/engraving? 

[stibbons]

Thanks! That's really nice of you to say.

2 hours ago, texasflyboy said:

Who manufactures your panels/engraving? 

I do. The short version: They're 3mm translucent perspex that's been sanded/painted on one side, then etched and cut in a laser cutter. The long version I wrote up in a blog post.

[texasflyboy]

1 hour ago, stibbons said:

Thanks! That's really nice of you to say.

I do. The short version: They're 3mm translucent perspex that's been sanded/painted on one side, then etched and cut in a laser cutter. The long version I wrote up in a blog post.

Very nice. But I'm also a little heartbroken, I can do everything except the laser cutting. 

[SAI Peregrinus]

I use a pair of Thrustmaster T-1600M joysticks. They're cheap for the quality ($47 on Newegg ATM, MSRP seems to be about $50) and can be set up to work left or right handed. My hands are rather smaller than average, so the heel of my hand can't rest on the area designed for that and still comfortably reach the buttons. To fix that I thickened the handrest portion using 2-part epoxy putty (JB Weld) to form a better rest. It doesn't change the performance of the stick, I can reach all the buttons, etc. Left stick is for translation, right for rotation.

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

My Logictech extreme 3d pro joystick has a top-hat switch. I use that for translate up/down/left/right  and then two thumb buttons for translate fore/aft (and the 3 axis joystick for rotation)

 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Brainlord Mesomorph

[Freshmeat]

I can warmly recommend building your own setup, and using KSPSerialIO instead of keyboard emulation.

[texasflyboy]

35 minutes ago, Freshmeat said:

I can warmly recommend building your own setup, and using KSPSerialIO instead of keyboard emulation.

Do you mean build something different than what is suggested above? Also interested in hearing why on the KSPSerialIO instead of keyboard emulation. 

[texasflyboy]

20 hours ago, stibbons said:

Thanks! That's really nice of you to say.

I do. The short version: They're 3mm translucent perspex that's been sanded/painted on one side, then etched and cut in a laser cutter. The long version I wrote up in a blog post.

If you don't mind me asking, who do use for the laser cutting and engraving? 

[mdkendall]

On 3/30/2016 at 6:05 PM, texasflyboy said:

Very nice. But I'm also a little heartbroken, I can do everything except the laser cutting. 

Ponoko do laser cutting and engraving of acrylic (and a lot of other things). We use them at work; they're pretty good.

[blorgon]

Does KSPSerialIO allow for analog input?

What I'm wondering specifically is if you can map an analog voltage to a specific thrust value for a given set of RCS thrusters, so that the harder you pull on an axis, the more the RCS port's thrust increases.

I was thinking you could set up some two single-axis joysticks, one oriented left-right and one oriented for up-down, each controlling left, right, up, and down translation, respectively. You could then add a slide potentiometer for forward-backward translation. Alternatively, you could use a single axis joystick for your non-dominant hand for forward-back, and a single XY joystick for the up-down-left-right translation. You could build a very compact and comfortable controller.

Another alternative would be to use an X-Box controller with the right thumbstick mapped to up-down-left-right, with the left thumbstick mapped to rotation, and the triggers mapped to forward-back.

Of course this all depends on whether you can program a controller to change the amount of RCS thrust, since I don't know how else you could get really precise control...

[Freshmeat]

On KSPSerialIO:

It interfaces KSP with an arduino over USB serial (caveat: does not work with win 10 right now). It receives a bunch of telemetry, and can return values for attitude, translational and throttle, all analog, in addition to the most common digital values (SAS, RCS, gear, light, action groups etc).

The reason I recommend it for hardware modding is that you can start out rather small, and expand your setup as time and money permits. So @texasflyboy, if you want to build you three way stick, you make the hardware as you have described, but instead of keyboard emulation you use KSPSerialIO for an extra 30 mins of setup. Then, dissatisfied with directional thrust being on/off, you can add a rotary pot to control strength for ~$1. Once that is settled, you might want a throttle, because the game gets so much easier when you have one. And a display of ground altitude for landings. And AP/PE values. And a fuel meter. And then you end up doing stuff like this.

[texasflyboy]

9 hours ago, Freshmeat said:

On KSPSerialIO:

It interfaces KSP with an arduino over USB serial (caveat: does not work with win 10 right now). It receives a bunch of telemetry, and can return values for attitude, translational and throttle, all analog, in addition to the most common digital values (SAS, RCS, gear, light, action groups etc).

The reason I recommend it for hardware modding is that you can start out rather small, and expand your setup as time and money permits. So @texasflyboy, if you want to build you three way stick, you make the hardware as you have described, but instead of keyboard emulation you use KSPSerialIO for an extra 30 mins of setup. Then, dissatisfied with directional thrust being on/off, you can add a rotary pot to control strength for ~$1. Once that is settled, you might want a throttle, because the game gets so much easier when you have one. And a display of ground altitude for landings. And AP/PE values. And a fuel meter. And then you end up doing stuff like this.

So where's the best tutorial for starters with KSPSerialIO? Is it pretty user friendly or so I need to modify Windows at all to make it work? 

Thanks!

Jon 

[texasflyboy]

Guys, I might have found the perfect solution (minimal/no programming, easy to implement). I've emailed Andy to ask if what I'm trying to do would be possible but based on what I've read on his website, it should be. 

Apparently the controller on-board this joystick can detect up to 8 other buttons (I only need 2 for now for the 3rd axis) and already has a USB interface. Would almost be plug and play. I'd just need to manufacture the enclosure/slide. 

https://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_info.html

https://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_inst.html

Not bad for $60. 

[Freshmeat]

Sorry for not getting back to you, my headmaster had resignation reception yesterday, so I was quite AFK.

Right now I do not know how you feel about writing code. My assumption is that you can code a bit or is willing to learn to do so. In this case, it is a 3 day project. Also, I have no idea of your access to workspace, tools, makerspace nearby etc.

There is not exactly a tutorial for KSPSerialIO. The DLL is drop-in as any other mod, and the config.xml is documented in the forum thread. Rest is Arduino code, a slightly dumbed down C. Along with the DLL is a well commented control code for Arduino that is easy to modify, I guess it serves as base for most custom controllers out there (barring code wizards like Stibbons). If you can keyboard emulate on a Nano, you can use this. And if you hit a snag, feel free to ask as people usually fall over one another with suggestions and ideas.

As for the joystick you suggest, if may be so bold I do not think you get enough value for a lot of money. While it will save you learning to code an Arduino, you get a lot of functionality that you cannot use afterwards. Further, the mounting plate is rather big, something that might cause problems when you make the case. As alternatives, I would suggest something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/XD2PA24CR-4NO-4Positions-Momentary-Spring-Return-Wobble-Stick-Joystick-/270881748989?hash=item3f11cf77fd:m:mLIEEuuhhDnR3tYQxPyokgg if you want digital control, or this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-axis-Joystick-Potentiometer-JH-D202X-R4-10K-ohm-2D-Joystick-/161829368355?hash=item25adc83223:g:jd8AAOSwQTVV-pm3 for analog. Both are less than $15.

Whatever you end up doing, be sure to keep us posted. I would be quite interested in seeing the final result.