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Blue Origin Thread (merged)

Aethon

By Aethon
in Science & Spaceflight

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sgt_flyer

sgt_flyer

Posted
Posted

@rune - the current first layer of pressure suits are already custom tailored anyway (granted, MCP suits need a bit more finesse :)) - still, now we have 3d imaging techniques for full body capture that helps a lot for custom made garments :)

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AngelLestat

AngelLestat

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It's only an improvement if it meets better requirements. If the improvement is to look ...., but it doesn't cope as well with extreme conditions or provide the same comfort and survivability, then it isn't an improvement. It's fluff.

.... skin suit won't look as good when you're wearing diapers underneath. Don't forget, you need a thermal layer, you need a coolant loop, you need room for the air and fluid to circulate inside the suit, and you need protection from windblast.

Is not about look! Is about safety, agility, energy efficiency and cost.

Astronauts have undergone 25 shoulder surgeries due to injuries from current heavy space suits.. Also small womens can not wear EVA suits. Sokol suits are not designed to work or move in vacuum, just to survive vacuum. So even press a few bottons with the suit is a hard tax.

MCP suits:

-They dont require thermal control. (for long term EVA in shadow read *)

-They can be tear or puncture and you would not die.

-They are lighter and need less space.

-Requires only a 20% extra energy (muscles effort) to move around vs 400% on normal suits in vacuum.

-They will be cheaper

-They dont need several complex air tight joints for each articulation which might fail.

-Life support system is highly reduced

-It does not waste habitat air as normal suits (which they need to be vented to reach operational pressure)

-Easy to wear (because it does not need to be a full body suit, it can have zippers)

*in case long term EVA in shadow (mars), you can limit the amout of swear you release by a valve and a thin extra layer. Or you can heat it with tiny resistances or tiny capillary tubes.

Of course the Dava Newman´s BioSuit still will need some development which requires more than 2 years (spacex needs).

They only need to finish the design of the pressure helmet joint with the no pressure MCP, find better materials for the gloves (although they are already better than pressure gloves) and find the best aproach from all the different ideas of MCP, because there are many technologies which can acomplish that.

The helmet possible design:

http://trottistudio.com/industrial/biosuit-helmet/

---------------------------------------------------------

Recently, Obama and the Senate selected Dr. Dava Newman (MIT biosuit designer) as new NASA'S DEPUTY DIRECTOR, and her first words on the matter was “If everyone isn’t talking about our journey to Mars at the dinner table, I want to change that.â€Â. Which supports my theory than government is not the real issue, NASA policy and lack of vision was.

http://www.popsci.com/geeking-out-dava-newman-getting-people-mars

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, those benefits would only really work for surface operations, which is the big reason nobody has built one yet:

What you mean?

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Rune

Rune

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Posted
@rune - the current first layer of pressure suits are already custom tailored anyway (granted, MCP suits need a bit more finesse :)) - still, now we have 3d imaging techniques for full body capture that helps a lot for custom made garments :)

Yup, I'm aware, that is ore or less what I said, that MCP suits are, and will have to be for the forseeable future, custom-made for the wearer. The old videos are pretty awesome, though.

Is not about look! Is about safety, agility, energy efficiency and cost.

Astronauts have undergone 25 shoulder surgeries due to injuries from current heavy space suits.. Also small womens can not wear EVA suits. Sokol suits are not designed to work or move in vacuum, just to survive vacuum. So even press a few bottons with the suit is a hard tax.

MCP suits:

-They dont require thermal control. (for long term EVA in shadow read *)

-They can be tear or puncture and you would not die.

-They are lighter and need less space.

-Requires only a 20% extra energy (muscles effort) to move around vs 400% on normal suits in vacuum.

-They will be cheaper

-They dont need several complex air tight joints for each articulation which might fail.

-Life support system is highly reduced

-It does not waste habitat air as normal suits (which they need to be vented to reach operational pressure)

-Easy to wear (because it does not need to be a full body suit, it can have zippers)

*in case long term EVA in shadow (mars), you can limit the amout of swear you release by a valve and a thin extra layer. Or you can heat it with tiny resistances or tiny capillary tubes.

Of course the Dava Newman´s BioSuit still will need some development which requires more than 2 years (spacex needs).

They only need to finish the design of the pressure helmet joint with the no pressure MCP, find better materials for the gloves (although they are already better than pressure gloves) and find the best aproach from all the different ideas of MCP, because there are many technologies which can acomplish that.

The helmet possible design:

http://trottistudio.com/industrial/biosuit-helmet/

---------------------------------------------------------

Recently, Obama and the Senate selected Dr. Dava Newman (MIT biosuit designer) as new NASA'S DEPUTY DIRECTOR, and her first words on the matter was “If everyone isn’t talking about our journey to Mars at the dinner table, I want to change that.â€Â. Which supports my theory than government is not the real issue, NASA policy and lack of vision was.

http://www.popsci.com/geeking-out-dava-newman-getting-people-mars

- - - Updated - - -

What you mean?

You easily sidestep all their issues: increased consumable consumption (open cycle cooling), much more troublesome seals, pressure sores on the wearer if the fit is not perfect (which it won't be after a few months on long missions), as limited in duration by your diapers as any other suit, much more difficult to don on and off...

Sure, they are a nice piece of tech that deserves developing, especially for the time we start doing surface operations because of the increased mobility, which is their main selling point. But for microgravity conditions? I expect us to keep using what we do for a long time, because it is pretty good for its job. You don't need to exert a lot to perform microgravity work, after all.

What would really be truly something, as I said before but nobody piqued on, would be mechanical counterpressure gloves. Those would increase the amount of stuff astronauts can do up there enormously, and be quite easily integrated in our already robust EVA systems.

Rune. When those are working without issues, we can start talking about hybrid suits with MCP arms and legs... and leave the crotch section alone and nicely armored, please. ;)

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AngelLestat

AngelLestat

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You easily sidestep all their issues: increased consumable consumption (open cycle cooling), much more troublesome seals, pressure sores on the wearer if the fit is not perfect (which it won't be after a few months on long missions), as limited in duration by your diapers as any other suit, much more difficult to don on and off...

About colling by evaporation is a lot more efficient than a close system by two reasons, you are get ridding of thermal mass and the evaporation process takes the extra energy from you. So you dont need drink much to equal the radiation needs of normal suits. All suits are made for 4 or 8 hours (but the limit here is your oxygen and number2 needs), the water you drink before go out is enoght to keep you cool. In case you need warm up, a normal coat will work, another benefic of the open cycle.

They dont even focus in the thermal aspect because is the most easy to solve with this system.

About the sores where is not perfect tight, is true. But it all depends on the final method of choice.

Here they talk about many methods how this can be acomplish.

http://www.4frontiers.us/dev/assets/BioSuit-NIACPhaseIReport.pdf

Sure, they are a nice piece of tech that deserves developing, especially for the time we start doing surface operations because of the increased mobility, which is their main selling point. But for microgravity conditions? I expect us to keep using what we do for a long time, because it is pretty good for its job. You don't need to exert a lot to perform microgravity work, after all.

Movility in microgravity is also a pain in the ass with normal suits, all the pros we mention still count for microgravity.

Remember that all normal suits become very rigid at vacuum and they are very uncomfortable and produce injuries.

What would really be truly something, as I said before but nobody piqued on, would be mechanical counterpressure gloves. Those would increase the amount of stuff astronauts can do up there enormously, and be quite easily integrated in our already robust EVA systems.

For the gloves part, I guess just elastic materials will be fine for it, or the thermal material that if you warm up it expand, and when it cools it contract with great pressure.

Rune. When those are working without issues, we can start talking about hybrid suits with MCP arms and legs... and leave the crotch section alone and nicely armored, please. ;)

Men may have that issue, It can be solved easily with a foam which hardens after applied or a gel, so the suit will applied force over the foam or gel, and these will distribute the pressure.

-----------------------------------------

About the spacex suits, the only thing I know, is that they need to look "badass" (elon musk orders) :)

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AngelLestat

AngelLestat

Posted
Posted

Well, Elon said before that he wanted a space suit with a "badass" look, I guess the space suit engineers and designers gave him what he was looking for :)

I remember an interview to the space suit designer, and when Elon ask him for that requirement, he was enthusiastic, because when he designed for NASA, they never ask him for those kind of details.

But it seems that is just a prototype, I imagine that still has long way in the development.

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Mad Rocket Scientist

Mad Rocket Scientist

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Posted
Well, Elon said before that he wanted a space suit with a "badass" look, I guess the space suit engineers and designers gave him what he was looking for :)

I remember an interview to the space suit designer, and when Elon ask him for that requirement, he was enthusiastic, because when he designed for NASA, they never ask him for those kind of details.

But it seems that is just a prototype, I imagine that still has long way in the development.

I don't see why it has to be "Badass," it seems that functionality is more important than looks. Fighter planes look visually interesting because of functionality, I think space hardware looks interesting for a similar reason.

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AngelLestat

AngelLestat

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Posted (edited)

dragon v2 looks awesome, and I guess its functionality will be ahead of any other capsule.

I expect the same for the space suit.

Furthermore, although many do not believe, "the image" helps a lot to a company.

It shows to everybody else that they are the top players, the ones with the access to future working in the edge of technology.

That is something that attract costumers and investors.

Edited by AngelLestat
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Nibb31

Nibb31

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Posted
It looks ugly to me... Not bulky enough ! That's what makes a spacesuit look like a spacesuit ^^

I wouldn't judge a highly photoshopped picture from Vogue magazine as a depiction of the actual space suit that SpaceX is going to use. Leather (faux?) probably isn't the best material to use for a pressure suit and black is probably the worst possible color.

- - - Updated - - -

What do you base that on? The D2 is meant to be reusable after all, I don't think the Orion is. And Orion isn't meant to be a crew ferry.

Dragon can last 10 days on orbit. Orion can keep you alive for 21 days. Orion also has EVA, long range communication and navigation equipment.

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Albert VDS

Albert VDS

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I don't see why it has to be "Badass," it seems that functionality is more important than looks. Fighter planes look visually interesting because of functionality, I think space hardware looks interesting for a similar reason.

It helps people get interested in space if it looks cool to them.

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Streetwind

Streetwind

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Posted (edited)
Raptor components are undergoing testing at the NASA Stennis center.

Page 3: http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/septemberlagniappe2.pdf

To provide a little more info than just a link: They've been conducting 76 hotfire tests on the full-scale oxygen preburner so far, all the way to full power. The testing milestone for that has been achieved this summer, as has the milestone for the main injector subscale testing last winter.

The oxygen preburner is the part in the full-flow staged combustion cycle that generates the gas that spins the methane turbopump. There's also a separate methane preburner, which spins the oxygen turbopump. Both preburners perform an incomplete combustion. Each one has just about all the fuel of its type passing through it (hence the "full-flow"), and gets a small amount of the other fuel injected so it can combust a little. Both preburners, after spinning each other's turbopumps, then feed into the main conbustion chamber. This configuration ensures that all of the fuel - even that small percentage combusted in the preburners - contributes to propelling the rocket, increasing Isp. And the full-flow concept simplifies the engine by requiring less branching feed lines and interseals as well as cooling the turbopumps better than in regular staged combustion setups. Simplicity and lowered stresses help with reliability and reusability.

Full-flow staged combustion engines have been experimented with in the past, but none have ever been completed and flown; if Raptor is completed and flies, it will be the first of its kind. Additionally, since it uses methane/LOX, it will have both of its propellants in the gas phase upon injection into the combustion chamber, making it the first gas-gas staged combustion system ever built. This further simplifies modeling and optimizing the combustion process. You can also expect lots and lots of 3D-printing to be involved.

It is an incredibly ambitious engine, but if they can pull it off, it'll be one heck of an impressive piece of technology. Just keep in mind that due to this ambition, the R&D effort required is substantial, and SpaceX doesn't expect to complete any fully flight qualified units before 2020. At least we're supposed to get the first official info on the Mars Colonial Transporter architecture later this year, so that might include extra nuggets of Raptor info.

Edited by Streetwind
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AngelLestat

AngelLestat

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Except for durability. In that, Orion will excel.

Yeah, it depends how you define durability.. Dragon v2 was designed to be rehusable, its thermal shield PICA-X can stand dozen of reentry from mars (which never will happen, but is just to know how many LEO re-entry can stand), by the other hand Orion is expendable. So it all depends what you mean by durability.

To provide a little more info than just a link:

That was interesting, it seems that is a clever design.

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Ralathon

Ralathon

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No he shouldn't, because that Star Trek series was by far the worst of the bunch.

Anyway, I really doubt that suit is how the final product will look. The design decisions just don't make much sense. Dark colors? partial padding? No rotary joint for the helmet? This might work as a biker outfit, but it won't do as a spacesuit.

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