Shuttle Challenge v3 - The 1.1.x STS thread [Stock and Mod Friendly][11.10.2016 - CLOSED FOR REFURBISHMENT]

[awfulhumanbeing]

Wait guys, how do you attach something to the telescope in stock game? Do you have to just deploy the pans on EVA? 

The preparations for the STS-1 have already started. Catch my mission this evening!

EDIT: Also, do you need to land on the runway? Are landings on poles acceptable?

Edited May 30, 2016 by awfulhumanbeing

[Alchemist]

25 minutes ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

Wait guys, how do you attach something to the telescope in stock game? Do you have to just deploy the pans on EVA? 

There are small docking ports - use them to take and redock the panels

25 minutes ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

EDIT: Also, do you need to land on the runway? Are landings on poles acceptable?

For Pilot ranks - land anywhere (some entries were even splashdown), for Commander ranks - get to the runway

[Speeding Mullet]

19 hours ago, Alchemist said:

Well, I decided to try rerunning the mission from the middle (the save was right before meeting the rock) and not mine it out completely.

It was difficult, but HRO-M landed on the runway with 35 tons of the asteroid! If you don't mind slightly bent wings (not exactly sure how this happened... must have overstressed the gear a bit)

*Gallery Snip*

35.01t!!!! - I must update the leader-board.  I think that that sir is going to be very hard for anyone to beat (ahem - challengers roll up!)  Have you decided which version you are taking to Duna yet?  Can't wait to see a vid of that!

 

9 hours ago, AffreuxLex said:

Space K: STS - 1 (No bonus)

So I made the mistake of deciding to go the video route.  Even with some parts being sped up to 7x, the thing is still 37 minutes long!  Feel free to skip around a bit.  I added a few annotations here and there.  This is only the shuttle to orbit and back to KSC for now.  I have some tweaks to do to a few things, I decided to go hard mode-ish.  I used a few mods... even disallowed ones!  But for honest purposes, honest!  If in your infinite wisdom and unfathomable grace you decide that these nullify my entry, I suppose I will redo it from scratch.  But not in video form again.

*Video Snip*

Final Apoapsis: 445,361m

Orbiter:
Skuttle IV
- Sanrec Kerman
- Billan Kerman
- Neilgard Kerman

Carrier: Esper 412-C "Snoopy"
- Bilbus Kerman

 

All Mods Installed (Whether used or not):
 

  Reveal hidden contents

-Environmental Visual Enhancements: Visuals only.  No gameplay changes
-Kerbal Attachment System: Used for struts, links, winches, and magnets during the mission
-Kerbal Engineer: Used for technical information
-Hyper Edit: Not used for STS mission, previously used to place "permanent" ground based radio relay structures.
-Kerbal Inventory System: Not used for STS Mission.
-Infernal Robotics: Used for hinges on Shuttle Mounting rig.
-Mech Jeb: Not used for STS Mission.
-Planetary Base: Used in the shuttle cargo bay, no effect on this STS mission.
-Planet Shine: Visuals only.  No gameplay changes.
-Quantum Struts: Not used for STS Mission.
-Remote Tech: Not used for STS Mission.
-Texture Replacer: Visuals only.  No gameplay changes.
-TAC Life Support: Not used for STS Mission.  Out of date and not working anyway.
-Kerbal Alarm Clock: Not used for STS Mission.
-Tweak Scale: Used on nose cone for shuttle carrier aircraft, counter weights on shuttle mounting rig, and shield plate on shuttle launch crawler.

 

No bonus you say?  No bonus?  I won't have it!  That was brilliant to watch start to finish with my just home from work cup of tea!  From the first tumble to the end of the video I was totally hooked so thanks for putting together something so epic.  I was actually wondering what was going on when you landed the Shuttle (perfectly) on the island runway and there was still a huge chunk of video left, then my eyes just got wider and wider as the re-usable infrastructure kicked in to gear.

Not only am I totally honored to award you the rank of Commander - Level 1 (Stock as I am confident that no critical parts of the base shuttle or carrier vehicle were mods, and also believing in your explosive ablation nosecone implementation  ) but I'm also going to go out on a tiny limb here and say that the level of detail in your video, shuttle and infrastructure design warrants immediate and unquestioning entry to the venerable hall of fame that is the Skunkworks listings.  Please collect your badges here and wear them with much pride.  Really hope to see you continue with the other available missions!!!

 

SM

[awfulhumanbeing]

STS-1(as promised)

My take on the suggested STS-1 mission.

Craft: https://kerbalx.com/awfulhumanbeing/Mario-STS-1

The craft is fully stock, I used Trajectories mod. Does that count as modded?

For the Pilot rank, due to a stall the crew had to splashdown.

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by awfulhumanbeing
bad craft link

[Alchemist]

12 hours ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Have you decided which version you are taking to Duna yet?

Probably both. Buran first, then...

Here's a preview of the second option. You can probably already guess all the insanity of the flight plan.

 

[funk]

On 30.5.2016 at 0:06 AM, AffreuxLex said:

So I made the mistake of deciding to go the video route.  Even with some parts being sped up to 7x, the thing is still 37 minutes long!  Feel free to skip around a bit.  I added a few annotations here and there.  This is only the shuttle to orbit and back to KSC for now.  I have some tweaks to do to a few things, I decided to go hard mode-ish.  I used a few mods... even disallowed ones!  But for honest purposes, honest!  If in your infinite wisdom and unfathomable grace you decide that these nullify my entry, I suppose I will redo it from scratch.  But not in video form again.

I feel your pain. I've had the idea of a video,too. I thought it would be nice to have a video of my STS-4 rescue mission which can somehow serve as a mission journal and as a user manual for my STS and SCTO (maybe the first of it's kind, at least the name) which I will upload to kerbalX soon.

It took me nearly all free time last week to adjust KSP, OBS and so on to get a reasonable result. I decided to break with the rules, because I didn't want a video flying at Kerbin for more than an hour. My notebook was working at its limits with that part count and capturing.        Note to myself: It's time for a new rig.

So far I'm halfway through and decided to release it in two parts. So... here is the first part:

I hope I can finish the second part at the weekend.

@Speeding Mullet: If you need more verification. I still have all the raw files. I could provide a ton of pictures...

@Alchemist: Awesome monster you've built.

Edited June 1, 2016 by funk

[Speeding Mullet]

On 5/30/2016 at 0:04 AM, awfulhumanbeing said:

STS-1(as promised)

My take on the suggested STS-1 mission.

Craft: https://kerbalx.com/awfulhumanbeing/Mario-STS-1

The craft is fully stock, I used Trajectories mod. Does that count as modded?

For the Pilot rank, due to a stall the crew had to splashdown.

*Gallery Snip*

Hi there congratulations on the entry to the challenge!  The Trajectories mod is more of a quality of life thing and so you will be counted in the stock section.  Good mission but unfortunately lacking the proof required to award you against the flight director badge.  Instead though you should feel proud that you have designed a shuttle that is clearly capable of lifting the fuel pod.  It shows at this early stage you have a capable shuttle.

If you provide the orbit proof requirement for the fuel pod and fuel proof required I will happily award you the Flight Director Badge.  Until then you can wear the Pilot - Rank one badge with pride as you have earned it!  

 

On 5/30/2016 at 6:23 AM, Alchemist said:

Probably both. Buran first, then...

Here's a preview of the second option. You can probably already guess all the insanity of the flight plan.

Epic - Looking like a well designed cargo package right there.  Interested to see what comes of this - Good luck with the mission

 

9 hours ago, funk said:

So far I'm halfway through and decided to release it in two parts. So... here is the first part:

Wow, wow and triple wow!  Excellently produced video I must say.  I can't even design an SSTO let alone an SSTO that carries a Shuttle as dead weight to orbit so mega kudos for that!  In terms of verification you are looking good so far mate, carry on like you are!  Can't wait to find out what happens what a cliff hanger!

 

SM

[awfulhumanbeing]

Thanks, @Speeding Mullet, the next mission will come soon too, even though I most time try to get my SSTOs flying.

Honestly, the shuttle isn't fully my contraption, I made a combination of ideas of Negative Root, ShadowZone and Matt Lowne (all on YouTube) and added this wacky aero spike OMS. The design was fully built and engineered by me though, so I just want to thank these guys.

I wonder if KJR counts as modded too, as a wrong move on re-entry tears the wings out of the craft, and if I go on prograde, I end up losing RCS. Or I'd love to get some engineering help.

[Speeding Mullet]

15 hours ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

I wonder if KJR counts as modded too, as a wrong move on re-entry tears the wings out of the craft, and if I go on prograde, I end up losing RCS. Or I'd love to get some engineering help.

KJR would count as modded yes.  Part of the challenge of designing an orbiter is definitely to not have the wings tear themselves off  .  Proper strutting can take care of this for you.  Not quite sure what you mean about losing RCS but definitely happy to help with engineering, either in this thread or in a shuttle development thread if you create one!

SM

[Alchemist]

On 01.06.2016 at 10:02 AM, awfulhumanbeing said:

as a wrong move on re-entry tears the wings out of the craft, and if I go on prograde, I end up losing RCS. Or I'd love to get some engineering help.

Don't put these quad ports on your shuttle - they have low thermal endurance. Use the linear ports - they are unlikely to burn up before your nosecone.

As for wings falling off, it's likely to happen if you lose control of your angle of attack at hypersonic speeds. That's balancing issue. Protip: split-rudder airbrake is really good at stabilizing you at moderately high angles of attack during reentry.

[Speeding Mullet]

12 hours ago, Alchemist said:

Don't put these quad ports on your shuttle - they have low thermal endurance. Use the linear ports - they are unlikely to burn up before your nosecone.

As for wings falling off, it's likely to happen if you lose control of your angle of attack at hypersonic speeds. That's balancing issue. Protip: split-rudder airbrake is really good at stabilizing you at moderately high angles of attack during reentry.

Some good call-outs here @awfulhumanbeing - The split rudder airbrake works a treat:

 

The other thing I do for AoA stability is clip a pair of AV-R8 winglets into the cockpit so they can't be seen.  They will provide quite a lot of pitch stability to your shuttle on re-entry.  You should with these two pointers be able to get away without any SAS authority (apart from the cockpit).

Remember for strutting you can place struts effectively internally so they can't be seen.  If you are careful with your strut placement you should be able to x-brace your wings together to increase rigidity.  Mine are well braced enough that you can cartwheel on re-entry and not lose any parts.  Happy to update for 1.1.2 and provide a download link if you want to pick it apart and see what I've done to create such a stable shuttle.

Thanks

SM

[awfulhumanbeing]

Thanks, @Speeding Mullet and @Alchemist! A few last problems:

How do people mount OMS right near the tail fin? It provides asymmetric thrust, so the craft just rotates.

The aero spike OMS is weird. What engines can provide enough thrust to orbit the orbiter but don't look that stupid?

Why is the shielded Clamp-O-Tron such a cheat? Are there any reasons why it never overheats? Its stats on wiki are quite average.

Thanks again.

[Alchemist]

48 minutes ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

How do people mount OMS right near the tail fin? It provides asymmetric thrust, so the craft just rotates.

The aero spike OMS is weird. What engines can provide enough thrust to orbit the orbiter but don't look that stupid?

If it's a bit off-center, make it slightly angled, so the thrust vector goes near the CoM (note: it means the thrust doesn't match you ship's facing, account for it), preferably something with good gimbal range.

Thuds make nice looking Shuttle-style OMS and have good gimbal range, if you don't mind a bit poor ISP.
I actually made orbital engines for my Buran by clipping 2 Poodles there (seems completely legit, given the propulsion system of Buran was based on Block D), but that's Buran.

48 minutes ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

Why is the shielded Clamp-O-Tron such a cheat? Are there any reasons why it never overheats? Its stats on wiki are quite average.

Must be something with multiple colliders and calculation of heating on the nose. There was some report of installing an antenna into the other nose parts having the same effect of getting rid of excessive overheating. On the other hand, if most nose parts (that are supposed to be aerodynamical) overheat about as badly as something with blunt uncovered attachment node on the nose, the question may actually be what's wrong with heating calculation of regular nose parts

[awfulhumanbeing]

Yes, @Alchemist, Thuds look cool, but they do not provide enough thrust and have lower Isp. Suddenly, I got an idea of clipping 4 Twitch engines through each of Thuds. Thud's thrust equals 120 kN in vac, whereas Dart has 180 vac, but if you add four Twitches with thrust of 16 vac combined with a Thud you will have 184 kN with an average Isp of 293, which is okay. 

Sorry if I messed up with average Isp stuff, I'm just too lazy to calculate everything scientifically.

So the descent in my case looks like this:

Before the heat begins, I set the pitch on 25 in the sky, the heat extinguishes, and the craft suddenly is yawing rightwards, and i get in a stall, recover somewhere around 2500 m ASL (s for sea), and splashdown or land.

If I set prograde before the moment the craft starts yawing, the sink rate increases so much, and if I turn too hard, I stall again.

Guess it has something to do with CoL/CoM situation. Actually, I feel there should be a "Kill rotation" option in the stock game, even though MechJeb still counts as stock. It just holds the prograde so good I wish I could hold a custom spot like that.

Also, trying to build a 0.90 shuttle with Scott Manley's manuals.

EDIT: btw, why does everyone use drogue chutes instead of normal ones? I never had issues with RUD on the surface with big chutes, and they can support a vertical landing if you stall.

The preparations for STS-1 started! Now there's gonna be many MechJeb usage to finally get that Commander Rank!

PS. Does MJ landing guidance account for planet rotation and re-entry slowdown and how does it deal with horizontal landing?

Edited June 3, 2016 by awfulhumanbeing

[funk]

5 hours ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

Yes, @Alchemist, Thuds look cool, but they do not provide enough thrust and have lower Isp. Suddenly, I got an idea of clipping 4 Twitch engines through each of Thuds. Thud's thrust equals 120 kN in vac, whereas Dart has 180 vac, but if you add four Twitches with thrust of 16 vac combined with a Thud you will have 184 kN with an average Isp of 293, which is okay.

I'm using Thuds, cause, as @Alchemist already said, they have a good gimbal range and have low mass. The lower ISP is kind of negligible. For me the thrust is more than enough, in space you don't need high thrust.

For angling the thuds, get RCS Build Aid and activate ACOM, then angle your engines that there is nearly any torque at ACOM (including payload). Then you could check without payload and low/any fuel, if the torque is in the limits.

Last you can attach a probe core at the rear node of your craft and angle it, too. For that, use beams as indicators. Attach them to the probe core and offset them so that they're facing into the payload bay. Offset your probe core inline with your engines and then angle it that the beams are going through the ACOM. Then you can offset your probecore wherever you want it to be. So you can control your shuttle in space from this probe core. Keep in mind, that this messes up with RCS, if you use RCS direction settings. You might want to control from the cockpit for RCS maneuvers.

Quote

Before the heat begins, I set the pitch on 25 in the sky, the heat extinguishes, and the craft suddenly is yawing rightwards, and i get in a stall, recover somewhere around 2500 m ASL (s for sea), and splashdown or land.

If I set prograde before the moment the craft starts yawing, the sink rate increases so much, and if I turn too hard, I stall again.

Guess it has something to do with CoL/CoM situation. Actually, I feel there should be a "Kill rotation" option in the stock game, even though MechJeb still counts as stock. It just holds the prograde so good I wish I could hold a custom spot like that.

There is no stall in stock KSP, just lift vs drag. Drag itsself is independent of lift.

When you're entering lower atmosphere at high speeds the impact of lifting surfaces on your stability increases. So you might want to slow down before entering thicker atmosphere, but a high AoA/reentry angle is more typical for a shuttle. Here are a few methods to avoid/check instability, which I will describe below in descending importance.

1. Get your COM/COL right. COL behind/near to COM when fuel is nearly empty without payload. Because your fuel might be in the last third of your craft, it will tend to stabilize your craft if you have low fuel load. Check with empty Monopropellant! Angle your whole craft in the editor (pitch up, slightly rotated) and watch your COL moving. You can also angle your elevons within the limits in the editor to check if the COL will move behind COM. If you use the bodyliftfix or for further KSP versions, keep in mind that bodylift isn't recognized for COL in the editor. The "non-lifting" Parts can provide lift and move your COL additionally.
2. Use bodyflaps. Imho it's the best way to stabilize a craft in lower atmosphere. As described above angle the bodyflaps to see their impact on COL movement. They will induce a pitch down momentum if used correctly.
3. RCS/Vernors can help to fight against sideslip/pitch up forces, but use fuel, so it's a trade off. But if you don't know the limits of your craft yet, you could test it and when your craft tries to flip, just hit RCS and you can recover.
4. Change Control Authority of the control surfaces during flight, it might help SAS to react faster, but needs to be adjusted during different situations. It's my way to compensate the messed up PID controller of the stock SAS atm. But for me it helps to fight the wonkiness of SAS. Claws stockbugfixes provide a SAS fix, which could help, too.

I'm sure I've forgotten some things and tbh when I've built my first shuttle it was hard to get it right and I was lucky when it could fly "stable". It's a learning process and sometimes it needed other crafts to learn some techniques which could be adopted. Today it's easier to avoid issues by design or to counteract issues which could occur while changing other things. Sometimes it's just a feeling or call it experience and I'm glad, that you're willing to learn. So if you've further questions go ahead asking. If you could provide pictures in the future it could be easier to answer without all that general stuff.

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by funk

[Ourworldalpha1]

I accept your challenge. just waiting for flash drive to transfer photo's to this computer,install on other one

[michal.don]

Kolumbia reporting again!

With a few slight changes, I was able to complete the asteroid landing mission. Despite a Kraken attack, who probably did't like a combination of claw and struts, the whole crew made it home with a 27 ton rock attached to the shuttle.

Manouvering with the rock was tricky to say at least, aerobraking destroyed a few things, and the landing was basicaly a free fall, but everybody is alive. I had a great time doing this mission, but I'm definitely never doing this again

Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the first aerobraking pass, but compared to the next two it was quite uneventful.

I hope everything is allright and properly documented.

Michal.don

[Speeding Mullet]

14 hours ago, awfulhumanbeing said:

PS. Does MJ landing guidance account for planet rotation and re-entry slowdown and how does it deal with horizontal landing?

According to the MJ Manual yes, but I wouldn't trust MJ for horizontal shuttle landings.  I think it will try and land your shuttle like a SpaceX first stage although I can't confirm that.  Trajectories is the mod you want as it accounts for atmospheric drag, lift etc etc, it's always highly accurate for me and I think flying manually would be a heck of a lot easier as odd as that sounds.

7 hours ago, Ourworldalpha1 said:

I accept your challenge. just waiting for flash drive to transfer photo's to this computer,install on other one

Good luck with the transfer - look forward to seeing your entry.  Welcome to the challenge!

 

6 hours ago, michal.don said:

Kolumbia reporting again!

With a few slight changes, I was able to complete the asteroid landing mission. Despite a Kraken attack, who probably did't like a combination of claw and struts, the whole crew made it home with a 27 ton rock attached to the shuttle.

*Gallery Snip*

Manouvering with the rock was tricky to say at least, aerobraking destroyed a few things, and the landing was basicaly a free fall, but everybody is alive. I had a great time doing this mission, but I'm definitely never doing this again

Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the first aerobraking pass, but compared to the next two it was quite uneventful.

I hope everything is allright and properly documented.

Michal.don

OK OK I've just got to get this out of the way first:  

Secondly, this is among the funniest pictures I have ever seen from a KSP user.  I mean look at their happy little faces!  Did the shuttle land the potato, or did the potato land the shuttle?  It doesn't matter because they all made it!

I can't see anyone beating this in terms of potato to shuttle size ratio.  Hmm, maybe there's a spin off challenge there - tiny shuttle massive rock  Oh my it's just so funny to look at.  It's a pity I can't like this post another 20 times haha!

Thirdly, and I mean this sincerely - Very well done indeed!  It's good to see someone else joining the lofty heights of Rank 6.  I will update the leader-board shortly to reflect your 27.00t landing.  Can't wait to see your interplanetary mission!

Looks like yourself and @Alchemist and nearly @Gaarst are at the last mission already.  I've yet to actually do this one but I'm also conscious that I want to keep extending the challenge in a meaningful way as long as everything thinks they will want further stretch missions.  What do we all think?  A play or two more around Duna or on to a new destination / mission profile?

 

SM

[Ourworldalpha1]

1 question, can i have Engines on the ET to help with ascent? i read your rules but found nothing saying i can or can not have Engines on the ET Two KS-25 on ET with Soild Boosters. and Three on the Shuttle ,its a American Buran Hybrid

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ourworldalpha1

[Speeding Mullet]

4 hours ago, Ourworldalpha1 said:

1 question, can i have Engines on the ET to help with ascent? i read your rules but found nothing saying i can or can not have Engines on the ET Two KS-25 on ET with Soild Boosters. and Three on the Shuttle ,its a American Buran Hybrid

Hi there!  

So basically you are permitted to have as many engines in as many places as you like on the External Tank as well as boosters mounted radially, but the shuttle must only have it's own engines which are either used or not during ascent.  Basically go for gold apart from with the shuttle, where the basic rule is: whatever the shuttle starts with the shuttle must end the mission with so no decoupling bit's off it.

Thinking further into your question and creating a Hybrid STS/Buran and whether that's allowed: It must be lifted into space by a Carrier Vehicle which either supplies fuel during to main engine(s) mounted on the Orbiter or lifts the Orbiter into space with its own engine(s) doesn't make for heaps of clarity, but precedent has been set with a number of craft that have used engines both on the shuttle and the ET during launch.  Most notably Algeo, and ZooNamedGames, so I think I'll allow it in the interests of creating diversity in the shuttle arena.

If in doubt pics and I'll rule on it for you.   Hope that helps!

EDIT:  With the above in mind I've made a minor edit to the shuttle definition to encourage diversity in design...

SM

Edited June 4, 2016 by Speeding Mullet

[michal.don]

Hi again,

this is Kolumbia's last mission so far.

I had a lot of free time today, so I was able to fly the Duna mission. I used the bigger tank and SRBs to be sure I had enough of delta-v for the whole mission, but it wasn't necessary, and even caused me some problems, when I tried to aerocapture at Kerbin on the way back, because the shuttle was too heavy. After a few tries I found out I had to burn several tons of fuel to be able to aerocapture. I hope this isn't an issue big enough to deny me the Commander level badge  Other than the reentry part, the mission went really smooth, and considering that I had to flush some 1200 m/s of delta-v down the drain, I could have probably visited Mun or Minmus on my way.

As always, I hope everything is documented properly, and not trying to pressure you, I'm really looking forward for more

Michal.don

[NotAnAimbot]

I have a question for the 42t fuel tank challenge:

My shuttle can carry it into orbit with less than 100m of difference, but the difference gets greater when I release the tank, since my RCS makes it wobble a bit and so changes the orbit. Does that count as a win or a fail?

[luizopiloto]

I updated my fashion shuttle... It needs a bit of skill to land.... but works...
https://kerbalx.com/luizopiloto/STS-Ventura

 

[awfulhumanbeing]

So, my STS-2 is goiing to be delayed, i have a lot of work. Right now i'm trying to pull off a cray-cray interplanetary thingy. Here's an early shot:

View post on imgur.com

Would love to get help!

Also, gonna be playing arond in RO, and in particular - try to build an RO shuttle.

[Alchemist]

Well, I also flew my Buran to Duna

Lost one part when returning home (why the heck did I put it there without looking at thermal resistance in the first place? And how it had produced no problems with all the operations before? Oh well, flies OK without that surface in the middle).

Video report coming soon...