Hauling tourists to orbit on level 1 VAB

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm having an awful time trying to accomplish this because of the part count limit not leaving me enough for fins.  If I use Jebediah as a pilot I'm barely able to control the rocket but I would much prefer to use the Stayputnik but it doesn't have SAS and without that I it always wanders off course.  (I'm using some SRBs to keep the part count down as my fuel tanks are still small but they don't have vectoring.)

I really wish they would change the part limit somehow, perhaps counting things like sets of fins or sets of chutes as one item.

[Plusck]

There was a thread about this the other day.

My 4-tourist suborbital lifter (21 parts, 16.1 tons):

Spoiler

That's a Reliant under the hood. To save weight, don't forget to remove Monoprop from the command module.

To quote from that other thread: "I take it quite steeply up to 72km, then try to hold retrograde (since Jeb can't do it himself) and use the remaining fuel to slow in bursts at about 50km and 40km. It invariably flips, but by that time the drogue chute is usable. If there's fuel left, I don't decouple the bottom of the rocket and use engines to slow to about 8 m/s before splashdown. Total recovery: 5,300 funds, so the entire cost of a 4-tourist contract is 2,300 funds!"

If you don't have the larger fuel tanks like you see here, just use the smaller ones. It only adds a couple of parts, still well within the limit.

And of course, if you just make it a 2-tourist bus, you can simplify that even more.

To make it orbital, it takes a bit more effort:

Spoiler

So this is right at the limit for weight. However, I have a heatshield on it and really, that isn't an absolute must. Without the heatshield you just have to come in more carefully. Or you reduce the ablator a bit more (it's set at 100 in this pic).

Edited April 25, 2016 by Plusck

[Loren Pechtel]

6 minutes ago, Plusck said:

There was a thread about this the other day.

My 4-tourist suborbital lifter (21 parts, 16.1 tons):

  Reveal hidden contents

That's a Reliant under the hood. To save weight, don't forget to remove Monoprop from the command module.

To quote from that other thread: "I take it quite steeply up to 72km, then try to hold retrograde (since Jeb can't do it himself) and use the remaining fuel to slow in bursts at about 50km and 40km. It invariably flips, but by that time the drogue chute is usable. If there's fuel left, I don't decouple the bottom of the rocket and use engines to slow to about 8 m/s before splashdown. Total recovery: 5,300 funds, so the entire cost of a 4-tourist contract is 2,300 funds!"

If you don't have the larger fuel tanks like you see here, just use the smaller ones. It only adds a couple of parts, still well within the limit.

And of course, if you just make it a 2-tourist bus, you can simplify that even more.

That's suborbital, though.  I've orbited, I don't think any more suborbital contracts will show up.

[Plusck]

Just now, Loren Pechtel said:

That's suborbital, though.  I've orbited, I don't think any more suborbital contracts will show up.

Yeah, sorry, noticed that just after posting, hence the edit.

[Loren Pechtel]

10 minutes ago, Plusck said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

To make it orbital, it takes a bit more effort:

  Reveal hidden contents

So this is right at the limit for weight. However, I have a heatshield on it and really, that isn't an absolute must. Without the heatshield you just have to come in more carefully. Or you reduce the ablator a bit more.

Weight isn't the problem, I have upgraded the pad.  It's just going to be a while before I can afford to upgrade the VAB.

[Plusck]

11 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

Weight isn't the problem, I have upgraded the pad.  It's just going to be a while before I can afford to upgrade the VAB.

OK, but as you can see in that second screenshot, that orbiting tourist bus has 22 parts. Even if you only have the smaller fuel tank (T200) that would only be 25 parts total.

And perhaps weight is the problem - if you make it heavy, you need more parts to support it.

Incidentally, that is a single drogue chute and single mk16 chute on top. More than enough for a command pod + crew cabin. You don't need any more chutes for something that weight, but you do need to sacrifice the final stage. If you add a radial chute you'd be able to save the whole final stage and get rid of the decoupler and heatshield, but it would need careful re-entry and maybe some retrograde braking.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Plusck

[Wemb]

4 hours ago, Loren Pechtel said:

I'm having an awful time trying to accomplish this because of the part count limit not leaving me enough for fins.  If I use Jebediah as a pilot I'm barely able to control the rocket but I would much prefer to use the Stayputnik but it doesn't have SAS and without that I it always wanders off course.  (I'm using some SRBs to keep the part count down as my fuel tanks are still small but they don't have vectoring.)

I really wish they would change the part limit somehow, perhaps counting things like sets of fins or sets of chutes as one item.

I hesitate to say this, because it goes against what you're trying to do - but if it's really, really difficult to pull off due to the limited number of parts you have, you may simply need to bite the bullet and accept this is the point in the game where you should upgrade the VAB?

Wemb

[Loren Pechtel]

4 hours ago, Wemb said:

I hesitate to say this, because it goes against what you're trying to do - but if it's really, really difficult to pull off due to the limited number of parts you have, you may simply need to bite the bullet and accept this is the point in the game where you should upgrade the VAB?

Wemb

I'd love to.  I don't have the cash.

[KocLobster]

@Plusck is a total beast, I'd probably need to tone down what he can do to non-superkerbal levels, but I did manage sending up two tourists before upgrading the VAB, so I know it's possible. Sorry I don't have any pics to support this or help, I'm on my phone, not at home.

[Wemb]

1 hour ago, Loren Pechtel said:

I'd love to.  I don't have the cash.

Ahh, shame -  last time I went through this I got a ton of sub-orbital tourist flights which were very cheap and easy to pull off - and was able to generate a ton of cash that way before going orbital.. Perhaps concentrate on satellite launches for now? Or, go to the admin building and cash-in some reputation?

Wemb

 

[Hickey676]

Need an early Career Tourist Rocket with maximun 30 Parts ?

I have made a Rocket wich can carry up to 14 Kerbals to Mun-Orbit AND Minmus-Orbit AND back to Kerbin.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Hickey676

[Streetwind]

1 hour ago, Hickey676 said:

Need an early Career Tourist Rocket with maximun 30 Parts ?

I have made a Rocket wich can carry up to 14 Kerbals to Mun-Orbit AND Minmus-Orbit AND back to Kerbin.

...Ummm.

Not wanting to knock your eagerness to contribute, but that rocket has a few issues.

- It requires five different tier 5 tech nodes to be unlocked. That means this design is well beyond "early career", but rather a midgame thing.
- You're using modded parts. It's best to stick to stock parts when making example craft for other people, because 95% of the time, they won't have the same mods installed as you do. Additionally, modded parts are almost always better than stock parts, so there's a possibility that the feat as a whole isn't even possible in stock.
- Your rocket has practically no control authority. During launch, while the Skippers are running, it'll be fine; but as soon as you stage the side boosters off, you lose almost all roll control. And once you are in space and the Poodle shuts off too, you're stuck with a 0.3 kNm reaction wheel trying to wrestle a 30-ton spacecraft around. It's probably only really controllable by employing the timewarp-kills-rotation "feature".
- There are 10 units of electric charge on this thing. That means in a typical low Kerbin orbit, the spacecraft is going to run out of Ec while in the planet's shadow just from the probe core's power drain alone, even without using the reaction wheel. And since you have to use it a whole lot to move the spacecraft even a little bit, it's going to severely impact your battery lifetime. Since all your passengers are going to be tourists, none of them can EVA and nudge the spacecraft into rotation; and when your probe core dies, you can't engage the Poodle's alternator anymore either. Therefore, if you make even one mistake of misaligning your solar panels at any point in the mission, the craft will be dead in the water and 14 Kerbals will need rescuing. From a 30-ton craft you cannot dock to, and which they cannot exit.
- The radial parachutes attached to the sides of the top Hitchhiker will not be properly occluded by the bow shock during reentry, because they are very far from the heatshield. Very careful craft control will be required to stop one or more of them from burning off - on a craft that's almost uncontrollable to begin with. Would be safer to place them on the top, like the drogues.
- The lack of an adapter on top of the upper Hitchhiker makes the design flip-happy during ascent, which is a worrysome prospect considering the limited control authority.

 

So yeah. I think this can probably work, and can fly a mission successfully... but it will not be fun to fly, and there is a huge list of things that can fail the mission in a tiny moment of inattentiveness. I would rate this craft for veterans only, utterly unflyable for a beginner. While it's certainly a show of force in regards what's possible to do in 30 parts (if some of them are modded...), a saner design would drop at least one of the hitchhikers, and likely the probe core and 1.25m cabin too. Add a 2.5m 3-man pod instead, and send a dedicated pilot along with 10 tourists, way more electric charge and stranding prevention, way more control authority, better aerodynamics and safer reentry characteristics.

Still would be a midgame spacecraft though

[Hickey676]

The Problem with missing MK3 Command Pod is, that it wasnt unlocked at that time.

Ok youre right, the Rocket uses modded part, i dont know if it would be possible without them...thats right.

But in fact i used that Rocket to get 12 Kerbals(6 Mission Contracts) at one time to the moon, with orbit, to Minmus with Orbit and back to Kerbin...and yeahhh your right, that rocket has the worst control...but its far away from being an uncontrollable.

It has no Batterie since 30 Part Limit.

When i build that Rocket, i hadnt enough money for the VAB upgrade, so i needed to find a solution and cause im lazy i didnt want to fly multiple rockets for these contracts.

So for me it was an really early craft cause missing VAB updgrade. And of Course, Gathering Science is in Career much more Easy...i did a minmus run and got science from 5 Biomes...in one Mission nearly 3k Science...i know its possible to get more

Last but not least, the side-attached parachutes will never burn, except you do a bad reentry...but reentry with this thing, is much easier than wit a Mk3 Command Pod and Service Module& Heatshield, since that 30tons Monster dont flip while reentry.

 

I`ve never seen me as a Veteran...more a expierenced Beginner

 

EDIT:
Notice, the middle Engine is also a Skipper, so its fully controllable from the Start. The maybe worst thing is the Rotation...thats right, buy hey there was no other solution...using MK1 Pod instead the Core wasnt possible since i think weight were too much and dV was sinking...i tried many options, but this was the most efficient way to get 14 Kerbals there and back again.

 

EDIT2:

There was a Pilot onboard....i had 12 Tourist and 1 Pilot and 1 Engineer with me cause they needed XP

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Hickey676

[Plusck]

In addition to Streetwind's excellent critique, which I agree with completely, maybe you should use another host for your pics, so they don't get covered with ads for "einfach erotisch flirten"...

[Hickey676]

I will user another host in the future...im sorry for that

[eddiew]

On 25/04/2016 at 6:18 AM, Plusck said:

There was a thread about this the other day.

My 4-tourist suborbital lifter (21 parts, 16.1 tons):

I tried something like this (just 1 cabin) but the mk1 pod dragged the CoM upwards so that the whole thing would have tried to come in nose first... Any particular secret, or just very being careful to stay precisely retrograde?

[Streetwind]

Well, the thing is a suborbital hopper. It probably doesn't get fast enough for anything to burn off even if it flips on reentry... (and hey, those tourists paid for a thrill ride, right? )

The new early-tech drogues are really a godsend, making any reentry that somehow manages to slow down to under 500m/s perfectly salvageable. And that should work even if you come in nose-first with a pod like that, especially since you can use the reaction wheels to wiggle and create drag.

[Plusck]

1 hour ago, eddiew said:

I tried something like this (just 1 cabin) but the mk1 pod dragged the CoM upwards so that the whole thing would have tried to come in nose first... Any particular secret, or just very being careful to stay precisely retrograde?

I've never managed to surivive with that sort of a shape for a fast re-entry, so I find that sort of design impossible once I get anywhere near orbital speeds.

As I said above, I use a really, really steep trajectory, just poke the nose out of the atmosphere and then use remaining fuel to slow in bursts at 50 and 40km. It will flip, but it's going slow enough not to explode and as long as you don't drop the controls (i.e. try to follow and overemphasise every movement) it's easy enough to get drogues out.

Basically, you should end up splashing down not far from the islands just off the coast. That also maximises recovery funds.

For the orbital variant, your pilot should have already orbited, and gained a star and the "hold retrograde" option. You have to ditch the engines though - leaving heatshield, single crewcabin and command pod to come in relatively carefully.

I said above that you could survive without the heatshield, or reduce ablator a touch more. Now I think about it, I'm not sure if that would work in practice, since it would have an even greater tendancy to flip disastrously...

Edited April 27, 2016 by Plusck

[Loren Pechtel]

2 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Well, the thing is a suborbital hopper. It probably doesn't get fast enough for anything to burn off even if it flips on reentry... (and hey, those tourists paid for a thrill ride, right? )

 

Tourists don't know what a thrill ride is.

A while back they were all calm when I barely managed to scrape out a Minmus landing--the suicide timer was at 0.0 when I got my finger on the right key and lit the booster.

[eddiew]

2 hours ago, Plusck said:

I've never managed to surivive with that sort of a shape for a fast re-entry, so I find that sort of design impossible once I get anywhere near orbital speeds.

...

Fair enough, I just wondered if there was some kind of technical wizardry I was missing - guess I'll have to fall back on fins at the front and a LOT of fins on the launch stage!

*edit* Thinking about it, a couple of control surfaces might enable it to enter more like a space plane, and add some air resistance to boot. Hmm... *thoughts*

Edited April 27, 2016 by eddiew

[RizzoTheRat]

My early game tourist craft tend to be 3 Mk1 capsules, with the middle one upside down.  Heavier than using a passenger module but nice and stable on re-entry.  Not done this in 1.1 yet though.

[Plusck]

31 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Fair enough, I just wondered if there was some kind of technical wizardry I was missing - guess I'll have to fall back on fins at the front and a LOT of fins on the launch stage!

*edit* Thinking about it, a couple of control surfaces might enable it to enter more like a space plane, and add some air resistance to boot. Hmm... *thoughts*

Despite what @KocLobster said, I am no beast or wizard.

The problem with fins up top is they make getting to orbit cleanly, harder. If I can, I just save a touch of fuel, wait until about 50km (or basically the last possible moment before aero overcomes the ability to rotate the ship to that sort of angle) and burn somewhere midway between retrograde and radial out. It basically "resets" your re-entry Ap, so you ride through the atmosphere as if you hadn't even made orbit, and although the atmosphere is tenuous at that height, it adds enough drag to make even a small amount of fuel go a long way.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Plusck

[KocLobster]

7 minutes ago, Plusck said:

Despite what @KocLobster said, I am no beast or wizard.

The problem with fins up top is they make getting to orbit cleanly, harder. If I can, I just save a touch of fuel, wait until about 50km (or basically the last possible moment before aero overcomes the ability to rotate the ship to that sort of angle) and burn somewhere midway between retrograde and radial out. It basically "resets" your re-entry Ap, so you ride through the atmosphere as if you hadn't even made orbit, and although the atmosphere is tenuous at that height, it adds enough drag to make even a small amount of fuel go a long way.

I think you're being too modest. I see you in 80% of threads being incredibly helpful and knowledgeable, regardless of topic difficulty, it seems.

Just something I've noticed.