Mining, is it even worth it?

[Alshain]

16 minutes ago, suicidejunkie said:

If you timewarp above 100x, then the thermal system starts to break down. I found that after suffering some overheats and engineers in external seats melting.  Switching away from the vehicle is best as of 1.0.5 or possibly earlier.

The arrangement of panels may also matter.  The fixed panels are supposed to only pull heat from components attached to the component the radiator is attached to, and anything further than that could suffer.

Well, the last time I tried it was in 1.0.5, and leaving the craft and going back to the space center produced 0 ore.  So, bugged maybe, but it didn't work.

Based on what KerikBalm said, it sounds more likely the biggest issue was not having an engineer.  If I was getting less than 3% because of that, I'm sorry but that is a complete and absolute deal-breaker.  I'm not even going to try it again. Maybe if someone made a mod to remove the engineer restriction, I could possibly salvage the system.  However, as it seems it is now, there really isn't a point in discussing it, as I said... the stock system is too complicated, tedious, and boring.

EDIT: Just took a peek at the drill, this may be doable through ModuleManager.  There is a "UseSpecialistBonus = true".  The only question is, if I were to set that to false, would I always get the bonus, or never get the bonus?  Or is that not even what I think it is?  Anyone ever try this?

13 minutes ago, tjt said:

I'm struggling through this too, but have a few insights.

To the question of how many drills. @KerikBalm mentions 8 drills, you talk about 2. Maybe it's just about expectations as to how big your drilling expedition has to be? 2 drills might be great for a Mars Direct style "park the drill out here and let it sit for months and months" style mission. My first rig had 4 small drills and was hideously slow - I almost gave up until I realized I just needed moar drills.

If I need 8 large drills for one tank of ore, the system is over complicated and needs simplification and/or better balancing..

Edited July 27, 2016 by Alshain

[Tyko]

20 minutes ago, Alshain said:

If I need 8 large drills for one tank of ore, the system is over complicated and needs simplification and/or better balancing..

The Mars Direct mission plans expected it to take 10 months for the fueling mission to create enough fuel for the return trip. As this is kind of the working model for how ISRU would work in real life, I think that we could probably use that as the measuring stick for Stock Mining - "How many drills would it take to mine enough fuel in 10 months to return a lander from Duna back to Kerbin". 

Excerpt from Mars Direct Wiki "96 tonnes of methane and oxygen would be needed to send the Earth Return Vehicle on a trajectory back home at the conclusion of the surface stay, the rest would be available for Mars rovers. The process of generating fuel is expected to require approximately ten months to complete."

To be clear, I don't think that Stock Mining is perfect, but I think that we have to manage our expectations rather than just expect a full tank of fuel overnight.

Edited July 27, 2016 by tjt

[Alshain]

2 minutes ago, tjt said:

The Mars Direct mission plans expected it to take 10 months for the fueling mission to create enough fuel for the return trip. As this is kind of the working model for how ISRU would work in real life, I think that we could probably use that as the measuring stick for Stock Mining - "How many drills would it take to mine enough fuel in 10 months to return a lander from Duna back to Kerbin". 

Excerpt from Mars Direct Wiki "96 tonnes of methane and oxygen would be needed to send the Earth Return Vehicle on a trajectory back home at the conclusion of the surface stay, the rest would be available for Mars rovers. The process of generating fuel is expected to require approximately ten months to complete."

To be clear, I don't think that Stock Mining is perfect, but I think that we have to manage our expectations rather than just expect a full tank of fuel overnight.

That's great, you can fly the Mars Direct missions, I want play KSP.  I expect a full tank overnight, and I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation for a game.

[Tyko]

10 minutes ago, Alshain said:

That's great, you can fly the Mars Direct missions, I want play KSP.  I expect a full tank overnight, and I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation for a game.

I get your point of view. For the record, I disagree and wouldn't want to see the game go in that direction.

In my opinion ISRU refueling is a late game endeavor for people who've spent the time to master launching, landing, rendezvous and are looking for a new challenge. Furthermore, most places where ISRU makes sense (i.e. other planets) take years to get to, so those player are also accustomed to a longer time scale than newbies. To present those experienced players with some instant super-simple way of generating fuel is actually taking away from the coolness/challenge of being able to accomplish it.

I think the system should work as advertised (heat, etc) and I think it should be easy to understand. I think the implementation of that system should be (somewhat) complicated and take time to make it a challenge for advanced players.

Edited July 27, 2016 by tjt

[Alshain]

2 minutes ago, tjt said:

I get your point of view. For the record, I disagree and wouldn't want to see the game go in that direction.

In my opinion ISRU refueling is a late game and challenging process for people who've spent the time to master launching, landing, rendezvous and are looking for a new challenge. Furthermore, most places where ISRU makes sense (i.e. other planets) takes years to get to, so those player are also accustomed to a longer time scale than newbies. To present those experienced players with some instant super-simple way of generating fuel is actually taking away from the coolness/challenge of being able to accomplish it.

I think the system should work as advertised (heat, etc) and I think it should be easy to understand. I think the implementation of that system should be (somewhat) complicated and take time to make it a challenge for advanced players.

But that's just the issue there.  It's not challenging to sit and wait, nor is it fun.  It takes the same amount of effort and skill to land a mining vehicle using Kethane as it does using Stock.  The only real difference is the waiting.

[Tyko]

5 minutes ago, Alshain said:

But that's just the issue there.  It's not challenging to sit and wait, nor is it fun.  It takes the same amount of effort and skill to land a mining vehicle using Kethane as it does using Stock.  The only real difference is the waiting.

again, I have to disagree...time is another "currency" in KSP that you spend to accomplish tasks. If time passing weren't important then why bother with requiring players to wait several years to get to Jool? You could equally argue that KSP should include warp drive so players don't have to wait to get to other planets.

I'm not saying "your wrong in wanting to play a certain way"...what I am saying is that KSP (at many levels) gives players the experience of running a (semi-) realistic space program. I just think that the Mining/ISRU system should reflect a certain degree of "realism" just like the rest of the game does

NOTE...I used a lot of qualifiers because I realize KSP isn't entirely realistic, but it does do a pretty good job of giving players a sense for how it might work.

Edited July 27, 2016 by tjt

[Alshain]

6 minutes ago, tjt said:

again, I have to disagree...time is another "currency" in KSP that you spend to accomplish tasks. If time passing wasn't significant then why bother with requiring players to wait several years to get to Jool? You could equally argue that KSP should include warp drive so players don't have to wait to get to other planets.

I'm not saying "your wrong in wanting to play a certain way"...what I am saying is that KSP (at many levels) gives players the experience of running a (semi-) realistic space program. I just think that the Mining/ISRU system should reflect a certain degree of "realism" just like the rest of the game does

NOTE...I used a lot of qualifiers because I realize KSP isn't entirely realistic, but it does do a pretty good job of giving players a sense for how it might work.

But you can go off and do other things while you wait on a mission to arrive at Jool.  I've not been able to leave the Ore mining and do other things.

I'm not trying to say your play style is wrong either.  But the question was "Is Mining worth it?"  I said no, and then got asked to clarify my position.  The whole thread topic is an opinion I am perfectly content to keep using Kethane, as long as it keeps getting developed, and if it ever does stop getting developed, I'd rather just haul the fuel I need with me than use Stock ISRU in it's current state.

The things I'm saying should be done, I don't necessarily mean the must be done, I'm just saying that is what would have to be done if I were to play with stock ISRU.  (It's just a discussion, not a development suggestion)

Edited July 27, 2016 by Alshain

[Tyko]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

But you can go off and do other things while you wait on a mission to arrive at Jool.  I've not been able to leave the Ore mining and do other things.

I'm not trying to say your play style is wrong either.  But the question was "Is Mining worth it?"  I said no, and then got asked to clarify my position.  The whole thread topic is an opinion I am perfectly content to keep using Kethane. And the things I'm saying should be done, I don't necessarily mean the must be done, I'm just saying that is what would have to be done if I were to play with stock ISRU.  (It's just a discussion, not a development suggestion)

  good conversation. I've (finally) been able to get my drilling rigs to run in the background. It was a PITA to figure it out and had to do with my rigs overheating when the sun rose each morning. You'd mentioned that you hadn't revisited since 1.0.5. If you want to try again I'll be more than happy to walk you through what I've learned, send you a breakdown of my rig's design or just share the Craft file if we are using the same mods.

[Alshain]

1 minute ago, tjt said:

  good conversation. I've (finally) been able to get my drilling rigs to run in the background. It was a PITA to figure it out and had to do with my rigs overheating when the sun rose each morning. You'd mentioned that you hadn't revisited since 1.0.5. If you want to try again I'll be more than happy to walk you through what I've learned, send you a breakdown of my rig's design or just share the Craft file if we are using the same mods.

I'm still playing 1.0.5 and waiting on a stable release (1.2 I hope!)

[Tyko]

Just now, Alshain said:

I'm still playing 1.0.5 and waiting on a stable release (1.2 I hope!)

Got it...the "overheating when the sun rises" thing might be happening in 1.0.5 too...that wasn't really a 'bug' fixed after 1.0.5 as much as me lacking full knowledge of all the thermal considerations.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, tjt said:

  good conversation. I've (finally) been able to get my drilling rigs to run in the background. It was a PITA to figure it out and had to do with my rigs overheating when the sun rose each morning. You'd mentioned that you hadn't revisited since 1.0.5. If you want to try again I'll be more than happy to walk you through what I've learned, send you a breakdown of my rig's design or just share the Craft file if we are using the same mods.

I found that the 1.25 meter isru overheat and shut down very easy, Only use this if you are very mass limited, this equals Tylo and Moho, everywhere else bring the large one, the 3 extra ton is worth it. its also very inefficient so never use on asteroids, 
Have an high ranking enginer around 3 star is easy. 
Leave miner alone for some days and its full, yes the radiators will then glow red, just stop the mining and isru and timewarp an hour. 

[Tyko]

6 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

I found that the 1.25 meter isru overheat and shut down very easy, Only use this if you are very mass limited, this equals Tylo and Moho, everywhere else bring the large one, the 3 extra ton is worth it. its also very inefficient so never use on asteroids, 
Have an high ranking enginer around 3 star is easy. 
Leave miner alone for some days and its full, yes the radiators will then glow red, just stop the mining and isru and timewarp an hour. 

Good info. Do you have a model for how many radiators it really takes? I'd found that the VAB numbers don't don't cut it because they don't account for the fact that your radiators are actually going to soak heat from sunlight too. The VAB numbers work great in the shade

[magnemoe]

4 minutes ago, tjt said:

Good info. Do you have a model for how many radiators it really takes? I'd found that the VAB numbers don't don't cut it because they don't account for the fact that your radiators are actually going to soak heat from sunlight too. The VAB numbers work great in the shade

I used it with 5 small on my Tylo SSTO with two standard drills and small ISRU, this gave overheat, I expended this to 9 and had no issues. Note I use an mod nuclear reactor who also add heat. 

Lander on Tylo, the aerodyaminc is for laythe operations, An aerodynamic Laythe nose with more fuel and parachutes is in Pol orbit 

[foamyesque]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

I found that the 1.25 meter isru overheat and shut down very easy, Only use this if you are very mass limited, this equals Tylo and Moho, everywhere else bring the large one, the 3 extra ton is worth it. its also very inefficient so never use on asteroids, 
Have an high ranking enginer around 3 star is easy. 
Leave miner alone for some days and its full, yes the radiators will then glow red, just stop the mining and isru and timewarp an hour. 

This, basically. A 2.5m ISRU + 3 big drills + 2 big radiator panels (not TCS) + 2 big fuel cells is, with a high-level engineer, both a closed loop and capable of filling a lot of tanks in a hurry. It'll also fit inside a CRG-50 bay, so you can bring it pretty much everywhere. For example:

51h for 320t worth of fuel; I think that's an acceptable gain, no? The problem comes when you don't have any engineers, which means you've got to use solar panels and batteries, but you can build a larger installation to still get speedy tank-filling if you really insist.

Personally, though, if you're tanking up that much fuel at a time, not putting an engineer on the thing's your own dang fault.

 

[ag3nt108]

you could argue that yes.  Currently my mining installation has no solar panels left, my rover has two tires remaining and can't move and Ive successfully delivered about 3500 units of LFO to space.  None of this damage was caused by me driving under the influence of mint ice cream.  it occurred gradually over the course of me switching to the vehicles.  This is after I've used multiple reloads from quick saves in cases where the damage considerably more.

[suicidejunkie]

I'm using 1.0.5 as well, and it works fine for me.  Perhaps mods are affecting it?

If you have an ISRU active while away, it could be eating the ore before you see it on return.  Make sure to check if your fuel tank levels have gone up instead of the ore levels.

[Provisional Name 12]

I think it is odd that someone is saying mining is hard. before I added a bunch of mods including life support my common method was to build a single unit with massive tanks and a single pod with an engineer on it. It was simple, go to minimus and fill up, then go to orbit and rendezvous with any craft going interplanetary (which I would plan to be virtually empty by that point). The amount of extra delta-v you can save adds up pretty fast, and when you factor in the extra launch cost of the fuels it doesn't take many uses for a converter to be worth it. I always found my designs were larger than other people's but I think that's just cause I wanted to spend less time landing it and sending it back up. If you are worried about cost, pay attention to contracts, some get ore on minimus or the mun contracts only require you to get back to orbit of kerbin, making a quick jaunt over to the Mun to pick up some ore before going back a profitable venture. It's entirely possible for a refueler to become debt negative just on these contracts alone. You don't have to build a sexy SSTO, most of my refuelers are basically 4 jumbos around the center with a bunch of tanks in between them and all the other needed stuff in the center. Unless you are landing in an atmosphere planet there really isn't a lot of meaning in design.

I haven't had a lot of bugs with landed bases and I hope it isn't common because that is going to be a major premise of my new career (will have to because of life support). The only issue I had was with inflatable fuel compartments, not sure if they're stock, don't use these if you can avoid it or if you must use them do so sparingly and with lots of room. When inflating since changes are processed at moment of returning to the craft it caused so many collisions that would dislodge stuff. Then I was stuck running around with the engineer reattaching components.

[KerikBalm]

You don't *need* an engineer, a lvl 0 engineer just makes you mine 5x faster, lvl 1 is 9x, 2: 13x, 3: 17x, 4: 21x, 5: 25x.

2 drills with a lvl 5 engineer is equivalent to 50 drills without an engineer, except its better because you use less power and produce less heat.

Also, I've found the small ISRU to b nearly worthless, and it wasn't producing fuel while not focused. I made a design with only a small buffer ore tank, expecting to convert as fast as I mined - which happens when I watch it, but when I focus elsewhere and come back, the tiny ore tank was ful but no fuel had been converted. And the 20% conversion efficiency of the small ISRU made it just horrible.

 

Its just gameplay design, if you don't like it, mod it. The way its designed, if yo uwant ore fast, you need a skilled engineer. If you don't mind waiting a while (such as the period of time until the return transfer window), then you can have it be unmanned. As it is, I never send manned craft where I intend to justmake a short stop on the surface to refuel, and then be on my way. I always have dedicated mining vessels that I have operating in the background, ready to supply large quantities of fuel for the next mission which will be launching around the next transfer window. When I need something faster within the kerbin system, I send a shuttle to take an engineer to expedite mining.

If you want gameplay balance to be different, then mod it, fine. Personally I'd find it easier to just edit the .cfg file so drills produce more ore, but whatever floats your boat.

I do agree that the ore % is mis leading, I don't know why 15% is 100%... that just seems stupid to me.

 

I don't like to do multiple fueling missions, so I have some big miners to supply fuel on demand

[Tyko]

I'm getting messages such as "you have extracted 50% Zaltonic Electronics ore". I'm getting this while mining on Minmus and the numbers are going up quickly from 25 to 50 to 75% in just a few hours. What do the messages mean? I thought (stock) mining on moons was unlimited?

[suicidejunkie]

You have a contract to extract 600 units of ore or so.

You've collected 450 units so far.

 

Once that reaches 100%, you get money!

The ore will continue to flow; you're not depleting a region.

 

PS:

I must admit, a very similar message caused me to panic because my mining rig was immobile and the name of the company sounded very much like a site name.

Edited August 19, 2016 by suicidejunkie
confession

[Tyko]

1 hour ago, suicidejunkie said:

You have a contract to extract 600 units of ore or so.

You've collected 450 units so far.

 

Once that reaches 100%, you get money!

The ore will continue to flow; you're not depleting a region.

 

PS:

I must admit, a very similar message caused me to panic because my mining rig was immobile and the name of the company sounded very much like a site name.

haha...I just saw that. Thanks for responding

[Sharpy]

I found establishing mining bases on planets and moons to be definitely "not worth the effort". Yes it works, yes it saves cash in the long run, but operating the fuel carrier fleet is so tedious you really want to give up.

OTOH asteroid mining is where the real profits are. Get a good, strong tug that can get an asteroid into LKO within an evening of gameplay, make it your fuel station and a major orbital base, and the game gets more fun than usually.

[suicidejunkie]

If you need more than one tanker, you didn't build it big enough!

The Titan class tanker lands itself next to the refinery on Minmus, and carries more resources than any of the asteroids except Gilly and Dres

 

[AlexanderB]

How much fuel is typically in an E-class asteroid? a C-class clearly wasn't worth the effort.

Still experimenting with # of drills v/s the ISRU, and still not sure about the radiators, the ISRU seems to run a little hot regardles of radiator count, but at least it doesn't randomly shut down.

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by AlexanderB

[KerikBalm]

asteroids are typically 80 to 90% ore by mass

E class asteroids are 1000-2000 tons if I recall

Most of them will yield well over 1000 tons of fuel