Self-Sustaining Bases with LS?

[DracoSilverpath]

So, I know this has been asked many times before, but honestly, every thread I've read on it just confuses me all the more..

I have ~ 130 mods on my current game, including all yer usual kolonization mods and station mods, etc, but I just can't decide what LS to use for my playthrough. It hasn't been an issue yet as I haven't gone further than Minmus at this point, but I'm about to setup my first base, and need to make a decision here and stick with it!

So, in short, which LS system is more recommended for self-sustaining bases, or if they all can do so, what's the caveats to each of them? I know TAC-LS can do it, but I'm not entirely sure if others such as USI-LS can, as the things I've read on it never really documented as to how to make it work in the way I'm wanting. Also, what about mod-intercompatibility and which colonization mods will work with which LS?

Mind you, these will be permanent bases, on every planet (including Outer Planets Mod) and a station for every gas giant if possible.

[dire]

I have heard (and I don't know if it's correct) that you will eventually need to make supply runs to your stations because their recycling processes are generally not 100% efficient. As I understand it, with Kolonization and USI-LS anyway, you can set up a self-sustaining planetary base by using that planet's dirt to power your greenhouses. 

Disclaimer: I don't really know what I'm talking about. Hope that helps!

[DracoSilverpath]

26 minutes ago, dire said:

I have heard (and I don't know if it's correct) that you will eventually need to make supply runs to your stations because their recycling processes are generally not 100% efficient. As I understand it, with Kolonization and USI-LS anyway, you can set up a self-sustaining planetary base by using that planet's dirt to power your greenhouses. 

Disclaimer: I don't really know what I'm talking about. Hope that helps!

Thanks for the reply! Yeah I've read the same thing around the forums, kinda why I was asking here if its possible or not, cause there's lots of conflicting reports on it. If USI-LS is not actually sustainable, then I'd likely switch over to TAC, but again, I don't know!

[DracoSilverpath]

Anyone else have input on this...?

[dire]

Give it a couple days, imo. Forums tend to be pretty slow and on weekends people often have other things to do. 

[Geschosskopf]

On 8/20/2016 at 5:37 PM, DracoSilverpath said:

So, in short, which LS system is more recommended for self-sustaining bases, or if they all can do so, what's the caveats to each of them? I know TAC-LS can do it, but I'm not entirely sure if others such as USI-LS can, as the things I've read on it never really documented as to how to make it work in the way I'm wanting. Also, what about mod-intercompatibility and which colonization mods will work with which LS?

I have not yet tried Kerbalism so can't say anything about that.  I have used TAC-LS, USI-LS, and Snacks!, however, so I can give you advice on those.

The goal of a self-sustaining base is largely a chimera.  With the exceptions of Snacks! and MKS-Lite, you really can't do it at all, and the more complex systems just make this more painful because they require gobs of micromanagement to limp long until the next resupply mission arrives.  So I recommend either going simple or just pretending you have life support without actually using it.

Snacks!
This one is fairly easy to make self-sufficient on a small scale because you can make snacks directly out of Ore, and your base will probably be on a good Ore concentration to make fuel.  HOWEVER, it has several rather severe limitations that make it only useful for very small populations.  There are no waste products to recycle---you just have to make new snacks out of raw materials.  So the rate you make snacks is dependent on the rate you can drill Ore, then the rate of the snack-maker (other mods that support Snacks! add more ways to make snacks).  At the bottom line, you just can't make snacks fast enough to feed a large population.  But before that becomes an issue, you have to get your colonists out there.  With no recycling, you have to carry enough snacks for the trip which, without other mods, are only in the crew spaces, and they don't hold a lot.  Or you can carry a LOT of Ore to make snacks en route.  But either way, packing enough food quickly becomes impractical beyond the orbit of Minmus.  So DeepFreeze is pretty much required for any interplanetary trip.

USI-LS with MKS-Lite
You can make a self-sufficient base with this one that actually works without a lot of micromanagement because the only input needed is Dirt, which is almost always found in high abundance co-located with the Ore you really came for.  The cycle needs fertilizer, too, but that's an intermediate product made by one of the base units so no problem and no extra inputs needed for that.  Each combination of habitat + greenhouse only supports a few Kerbals  but you can scale it up a lot better than you can with Snacks!  It's also a lot easier to pack/grow enough supplies for a trip to Duna, even Jool, but beyond that, DeepFreeze is recommended.

USI-LS with Regular MKS
I haven't used this in a while so things might have changed, but full self-sufficiency used to be impossible because the life support cycle needs fertilizer, which you had no way to manufacture.  That might have changed, and certainly other mods like Pathfinder have ways of making fertilizer to solve this problem.  But even so, you end up needing water and substrate regardless, plus whatever fertilizer is made of (mulch in Pathfinder).  The problem with is, however, is that usefully large concentrations of water and substrate and mostly found where there's little Ore, and vice versa.  Thus, is very unlikely that you'll find everything you need for self-sufficient life support in the same spot as Ore, which you need for fuel.  This means you're likely to need multiple bases and use the USI logistics system to move resources around between the bases, which is a lot of micromanagement.  And then it often fails to work for unknown reasons because there are so many variables involved with efficiencies and such that you really don't know how to design the system to start with, nor how to tweak it properly while you micromanage it.  You always run short of something no matter what you do.  This is the main reason I quit using this system.

TAC-LS
This has the same sort of issues as full-blown USI-LS only worse, because here Kerbals require 3 separate resources to survive instead of just 1, and each of them has its own chain of recyclers and necessary inputs.  And in my experience, you always run low on food eventually.  As far as I can tell, long-term self-sufficiency is pretty much impossible with TAC-LS.

----------------------------------------------------

As I said, I've never used Kerbalism so have no idea how it stacks up to these.  But if I was trying for fully self-sufficient bases, the only viable option is MKS-Lite for anything other than a tiny outpost.  It actually works and doesn't require very much intervention by the player.  But you do need lots of base modules due to the limited population any set of modules can support.

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[DracoSilverpath]

2 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

I have not yet tried Kerbalism so can't say anything about that.  I have used TAC-LS, USI-LS, and Snacks!, however, so I can give you advice on those.

The goal of a self-sustaining base is largely a chimera.  With the exceptions of Snacks! and MKS-Lite, you really can't do it at all, and the more complex systems just make this more painful because they require gobs of micromanagement to limp long until the next resupply mission arrives.  So I recommend either going simple or just pretending you have life support without actually using it.

Snacks!
This one is fairly easy to make self-sufficient on a small scale because you can make snacks directly out of Ore, and your base will probably be on a good Ore concentration to make fuel.  HOWEVER, it has several rather severe limitations that make it only useful for very small populations.  There are no waste products to recycle---you just have to make new snacks out of raw materials.  So the rate you make snacks is dependent on the rate you can drill Ore, then the rate of the snack-maker (other mods that support Snacks! add more ways to make snacks).  At the bottom line, you just can't make snacks fast enough to feed a large population.  But before that becomes an issue, you have to get your colonists out there.  With no recycling, you have to carry enough snacks for the trip which, without other mods, are only in the crew spaces, and they don't hold a lot.  Or you can carry a LOT of Ore to make snacks en route.  But either way, packing enough food quickly becomes impractical beyond the orbit of Minmus.  So DeepFreeze is pretty much required for any interplanetary trip.

USI-LS with MKS-Lite
You can make a self-sufficient base with this one that actually works without a lot of micromanagement because the only input needed is Dirt, which is almost always found in high abundance co-located with the Ore you really came for.  The cycle needs fertilizer, too, but that's an intermediate product made by one of the base units so no problem and no extra inputs needed for that.  Each combination of habitat + greenhouse only supports a few Kerbals  but you can scale it up a lot better than you can with Snacks!  It's also a lot easier to pack/grow enough supplies for a trip to Duna, even Jool, but beyond that, DeepFreeze is recommended.

USI-LS with Regular MKS
I haven't used this in a while so things might have changed, but full self-sufficiency used to be impossible because the life support cycle needs fertilizer, which you had no way to manufacture.  That might have changed, and certainly other mods like Pathfinder have ways of making fertilizer to solve this problem.  But even so, you end up needing water and substrate regardless, plus whatever fertilizer is made of (mulch in Pathfinder).  The problem with is, however, is that usefully large concentrations of water and substrate and mostly found where there's little Ore, and vice versa.  Thus, is very unlikely that you'll find everything you need for self-sufficient life support in the same spot as Ore, which you need for fuel.  This means you're likely to need multiple bases and use the USI logistics system to move resources around between the bases, which is a lot of micromanagement.  And then it often fails to work for unknown reasons because there are so many variables involved with efficiencies and such that you really don't know how to design the system to start with, nor how to tweak it properly while you micromanage it.  You always run short of something no matter what you do.  This is the main reason I quit using this system.

TAC-LS
This has the same sort of issues as full-blown USI-LS only worse, because here Kerbals require 3 separate resources to survive instead of just 1, and each of them has its own chain of recyclers and necessary inputs.  And in my experience, you always run low on food eventually.  As far as I can tell, long-term self-sufficiency is pretty much impossible with TAC-LS.

----------------------------------------------------

As I said, I've never used Kerbalism so have no idea how it stacks up to these.  But if I was trying for fully self-sufficient bases, the only viable option is MKS-Lite for anything other than a tiny outpost.  It actually works and doesn't require very much intervention by the player.  But you do need lots of base modules due to the limited population any set of modules can support.

 

Wow, thank you for all the info! I went and looked at MKS Lite, and even though it is indeed interesting, it just feels a bit too....simplified? My current install has all of the USI mods, including UKS, as well as a few other base mods such as Planetary Base Systems, would that change anything/make it more feasible, or is there any other additions I can make to make it so? I don't really want an "easy" base setup by any means, as long as it has an actual way to make it sustainable I'd be fairly happy.

You also mentioned the logistics for UKS, how does that work exactly, and what makes it soo darn difficult, in your opinion?

[Geschosskopf]

30 minutes ago, DracoSilverpath said:

Wow, thank you for all the info! I went and looked at MKS Lite, and even though it is indeed interesting, it just feels a bit too....simplified? My current install has all of the USI mods, including UKS, as well as a few other base mods such as Planetary Base Systems, would that change anything/make it more feasible, or is there any other additions I can make to make it so? I don't really want an "easy" base setup by any means, as long as it has an actual way to make it sustainable I'd be fairly happy.

You also mentioned the logistics for UKS, how does that work exactly, and what makes it soo darn difficult, in your opinion?

Like I said, self-sufficient bases aren't possible except in 2 ways:

1. Use MKS-Lite.  It works and doesn't need micromanagement.  The others don't work and are deep abysses of micromanagement.  And that's intentional.  They're not SUPPOSED to create a totally closed loop system.
2. Don't install life support.  Seriously.  Assuming that you could actually make a closed loop with a more complex system, and that it ran without you constantly tinkering with it, what would that really add to your gameplay experience?  Answer:  nothing whatsoever.  All you've done is add some extra parts to your ships and your bases, which you can then totally ignore while you go on with other things.  IOW, for all the difference it makes to you, those parts might as well be doing nothing.  This means you get the exact same net effect on your gameplay if those same parts are there but not actually doing anything.  Then you just pretend you've got life support.

Option #2 is my preferred method these days.  And that's my reaction to all the so-called "realism" features.  Take reentry heating becoming a thing.  OK, I just stick a heatshield on the pod and problem solved.  My rocket is a bit heavier and more expensive, and has 1 extra part, and that's it.  No other impact on my gameplay.  So why bother?  It's exactly the same with life support.  If it were possible to make bases truly self-sufficient, you'd design them to be that way and never think about life support again.  Which is why the more complex mods don't allow you to make bases self-sufficient, and why they require constant tinkering.  You want "realistic" life support, you get "realistic" limitations.  And they absorb your whole attention.

As to the USI logistic system, that's an interesting feature with several layers.  First off, there's a short-range thing (a few dozen to a few hundred meters) that allows separate but nearby base units to exchange resources for free.  It assumes there are underground pipes, electrical cables, etc., linking them.  This is so you can avoid the pain of docking modules, and also makes the base more Kraken-resistant because the more parts you connect together, the more likely the base is to spontaneously explode.  At longer ranges, including up to orbit, you can add another part (a "logistics hub" IIRC) to carry resources between separate bases and stations at the cost of fuel.  Basically, this assumes that there's a fleet of little drone cargo ships flying around, burning the fuel.  So you have to make enough extra fuel for these transfers.  And last time I messed with this, you had to manually schedule all the transfers instead of them being automatic, and they took time both to start and to reach their destinations, and they don't happen at all unless you have the fuel available in the right places.  Thus, it was still a lot of micromanagement (you had to know what you wanted when, which required paying close attention to your bases).  All it saved you was actually having to fly the ships yourself.

Pathfinder has its own logistics system.  In that, everything within physics range can share resources automatically and pretty much instantly, for free, once you tell them to do so.  But physics range is its limit---you can't send stuff to or from orbit this way.  However, you can refuel ships without having to dock them or use KAS pipes, just land within physics range of a fuel depot and voila, which is pretty cool.  But this system only works between parts from @Angel-125's mods (Pathfinder, Buffalo, MOLE, and DSEV) and I think a few parts in Planetary Bases.  Still, those mods have tanks of all shapes and sizes for any and all resources and the various resource converters for anything else, whether life support, ISRU, or Extraplanetary Launchpads, so this isn't a big restriction.