Suggestion: Make wheels act like wheels instead of round sleds.

[steve_v]

13 minutes ago, Talavar said:

 I forgot to hit The HD button on upload, but none-the-less, here it is.. This one didn't turn completely sideways. but still slides and goes Ape....

Your problem is almost certainly landing gear placement...

The combination of rear gear so far back and positive AoA on the runway is causing your rear wheels to lift off first, loosing friction. The slight inherent bank (nothing is perfect) then causes sideways drift.

Move those gear to just behind the CoM and take off like a real plane does, pivoting on the main landing gear, nosewheel lifting off first. Accelerate, then rotate.
You probably won't need a static nose up attitude on the runway that way either -> makes landing much easier.

Edited September 16, 2016 by steve_v

[Talavar]

10 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I know you made that in like 30 seconds but there are build flaws that have to be solved before completely blaming the game.

1. Put control surfaces on those wings
2. change those static vertical stabilizers to ones that can angle themselves otherwise your lacking yaw control.
3. shorten the plane, longer the more issues your going to encounter unless you move the landing gear further out.
4. Move the forward control surfaces further up

That's it for now. Do that and try again.

Tried what you said. It still slipped sideways a bit, but I was able to get off the ground. It appears there is much more "control" needed in the aero-dynamics than was previously needed (1.0.5). It seems,the wheels have no bearing on keeping the plane straight on the runway anymore. Hence, you need to stabilize with the aerodynamics, rather than the wheels. Thanks for the (indirect) Heads up. lol

Edited September 16, 2016 by Talavar

[steve_v]

Rough enough "standard" tricycle landing gear placement:

Note the main gear is the fulcrum of a lever (with canards, a class 2 lever, with normal elevators, class 1) keeping the rear wheels firmly on the ground as you pitch up to lift off.

Edited September 16, 2016 by steve_v

[Talavar]

1 minute ago, steve_v said:

Rough enough "standard" tricycle landing gear placement:

Note the main gear is the fulcrum of a lever (with canards, a class 2 lever, with normal elevators, class 1) keeping the rear wheels firmly on the ground as you pitch up to lift off.

Looks like you may have a dangerous situation with the tail while landing. lol

[steve_v]

2 minutes ago, Talavar said:

Looks like you may have a dangerous situation with the tail while landing. lol

Nah, lands easy, if a little bouncy. Just don't flare too hard.

The camera angle makes it look like the mains are higher up than they really are, it sits almost level on the runway, just a smidge of nose-up.

I doubt it would fly (or land) so well in FAR, finding stock aero ridiculously forgiving right now.

Edited September 16, 2016 by steve_v

[ZooNamedGames]

4 minutes ago, Talavar said:

Looks like you may have a dangerous situation with the tail while landing. lol

He does have a point however, keeping the gear forward aids on take off significantly and is used by real world aircraft.

[Talavar]

1 minute ago, steve_v said:

Nah, lands easy, if a little bouncy. Just don't flare too hard.

The camera angle makes it look like the mains are higher up than they really are, it sits almost level on the runway, just a smidge of nose-up.

 I'm literally building all kinds of stuff now.. All seems well.. just need a metric ton of control surface... well... way more than i'm used to. lol

[ZooNamedGames]

14 minutes ago, Talavar said:

Tried what you said. It still slipped sideways a bit, but I was able to get off the ground. It appears there is much more "control" needed in the aero-dynamics than was previously needed (1.0.5). It seems,the wheels have no bearing on keeping the plane straight on the runway anymore. Hence, you need to stabilize with the aerodynamics, rather than the wheels. Thanks for the (indirect) Heads up. lol

What you had was a very poorly controlled lawn dart. Don't ever be afraid of adding control surfaces, they only help you.

Here's an oldie of mine that has always flown great.

You can see that it has two controllable vertical stabilizers and (should) have two control surfaces at the end of the wing as well as that forward canard for additional control. This is normal and helps aid stability. Also try to use SAS where possible.

[Talavar]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

He does have a point however, keeping the gear forward aids on take off significantly and is used by real world aircraft.

 I generally keep my landing gear in the rear, and build so the craft has a general slope-up, there-by naturally having lift on the runway. Less to worry about in landing as well. .. My only problem now is having TOO much control.. lol.. Need to find a happy medium.. as of right now, if it barely tap a button the aircraft does a 90* .. lol

[steve_v]

2 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

keeping the gear forward aids on take off significantly and is used by real world aircraft.

Indeed, there is a good reason for this. If your rear gear lifts off first, you will likely wheelbarrow, and balancing on a single nose gear for more than a second will almost certainly result in loss of control.
This is also why taildraggers have two wheels at the front... they're the last to leave the runway.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, Talavar said:

 I generally keep my landing gear in the rear, and build so the craft has a general slope-up, there-by naturally having lift on the runway. Less to worry about in landing as well. .. My only problem now is having TOO much control.. lol.. Need to find a happy medium.. as of right now, if it barely tap a button the aircraft does a 90* .. lol

There is never too much control in my opinion. Unless it's how much response your getting which is different and that you can solve by delegating which control surfaces respond to what as well as disabling reaction wheels if needed.

Lastly you can still get the slop whilst moving the landing gear forward.

[Talavar]

2 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

What you had was a very poorly controlled lawn dart. Don't ever be afraid of adding control surfaces, they only help you.

Here's an oldie of mine that has always flown great.

You can see that it has two controllable vertical stabilizers and (should) have two control surfaces at the end of the wing as well as that forward canard for additional control. This is normal and helps aid stability. Also try to use SAS where possible.

 This is LITERALLY exactly what I built.. LOL

[ZooNamedGames]

6 minutes ago, Talavar said:

 This is LITERALLY exactly what I built.. LOL

Yours was longer, less controlled and aircraft powered  . This one is long since mine.

[Talavar]

2 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Yours was longer, less controlled and aircraft powered  . This one is long since mine.

 I meant, after I did what you suggested, rebuilding. I literally built that exact craft, only without the SAS module.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Talavar

[ZooNamedGames]

5 minutes ago, Talavar said:

 I meant, after I did what you suggested, rebuilding. I literally built that exact craft, only without the SAS module.

Ah ok  .

[Daripuff]

46 minutes ago, Talavar said:

 I generally keep my landing gear in the rear, and build so the craft has a general slope-up, there-by naturally having lift on the runway. 

Well there is your problem. 

Your aircraft design means that your stable wheel set leaves the runway first, before you have sufficient speed for full aerodynamic stability. 

Even if wheels were perfect,  you'd still be having this issue,  because you can't have stability on one wheel. 

You have to either switch to a "two wheels in front one in back"  setup,  or move your rear wheels to just behind the CoM,  and give your plane a level or slightly nose down stance on the runway. 

If you don't do either of those,  you'll continue to have the exact same phenomenon,  even with theoretically perfectly simulated wheels. 

PEBKAC. 

[Red Iron Crown]

1 hour ago, Talavar said:

 I forgot to hit The HD button on upload, but none-the-less, here it is.. This one didn't turn completely sideways. but still slides and goes Ape....

 

I had issues like this in 1.1.x, I found turning off wheel steering for all wheels helped immensely. Steering seems to be best for taxiing and not much else.

[panzer1b]

While i myself dont like the current limitations, you do not want to know how much worse the wheels were back in the day.  Funny sure, but they dug into the ground to such an extent that super wide chassis would flip over instead of sliding as it would irl.  Heck, anyone who has tried going 70mph around a sharp 180 degree hairpin (ive actually done this ) will know that low CG cars will slide and not flip over (yeah im never doing that in a SUV).  Yeah i do agree with teh general consensus that the wheels in KSP are a little too slippery sideways, but id rather have that then the flippiness of the older versions.

As for the vector based colliders, they are quite limited, but in my opinion 90% of vehicles work fine with them as they are.  The few things that dont like it are all-terrain vehicles but the stock maps dont really have such features that would require that capability (until the day the devs decide to give the scatters colliders that is).  There are a few buggy spots near KSC, but again, they are not common and most of them cant be roved over anyways (good luck going up a vertical wall).  The only real thing it does is force you to angle the wheels correctly to the anticipated terrain and that i it and it works on every planet for the most part.

Wheels could always be better, but id rather live with it as is and have the devs spend their time on far more critical things, again, thats my opinion but i never considered KSP a racing sim (and its way more complex because pretty much no racing sims simulate wheels being sideways either, id guess many use similar to ksp vector based wheel detection).  KSP is all about making capital ships, starfighters, carriers, space stations, and teh occasional bunker or tank and pitting them into battle with each other (right ).

[Talavar]

1 hour ago, Red Iron Crown said:

I had issues like this in 1.1.x, I found turning off wheel steering for all wheels helped immensely. Steering seems to be best for taxiing and not much else.

Noted!

[klgraham1013]

8 hours ago, Arsonide said:

Unfortunately these two statements directly contradict each other. Polish does not come from the polish fairy. Every second we spend on Feature X is a second that Feature Y does not get.

I suppose I meant polishing what's already there over adding new features.   As I said, I am wholly unqualified.

[Speeding Mullet]

This thread makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  It could have gone a very different direction but the conversation and assistance is wonderful to see.  Great community stuff and some nice pro-tips here too.  Turning off wheel steering helps immensely - I found that with landing my shuttle especially. 

SM

[foamyesque]

Basically the big thing with the "my plane is turning sideways on takeoff run" is that wheels are now responsive to aerodynamic loading, and it's throwing people who are used to the old behaviour off. If you put your main lift close to your landing gear and CoM you have much fewer problems.

 

Also, you should never need more than standard canards as your control surfaces and stabilizers :v

[Talavar]

3 hours ago, foamyesque said:

Basically the big thing with the "my plane is turning sideways on takeoff run" is that wheels are now responsive to aerodynamic loading, and it's throwing people who are used to the old behaviour off.

 This pretty much nails it.  Since the wheels were doing the horizontal jig in 1.1.+ , this simply compounds the confusion, because you come back, knowing the wheels were going nuts last time. I simply came back, built a craft just like I normally would in 1.0.5 and it didn't work as it had previously. First impression "It's still broke". Queue instant frustration.

[foamyesque]

What specifically happens is that your rear gears lift off, your nose gears get pressed down, and this moves your center of drag way ahead of your center of mass, overwhelming tail stabilizers. It gets worse as you go faster because the drag caused by your nose gear being jammed into the ground increases with speed just like the stabilization from a tail does, hence the pivots.

I have not seen a plane with a "steers left/right on takeoff" problem that has not been correctable by moving gear and/or rebalancing the CoL.Sometimes it's more difficult to get right than it really ought to be -- the first tier landing gear in particular are a huge pain because they have zero suspension -- but it's fully doable.

There are bugs with wheels (and landing legs) that cause things like uphill slides and constant injections of energy into the system, but that specific problem is purely a design issue.