Printed Manual

[Tex_NL]

2 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

So... if something exists online, a book about it is obsolete?

Some people just like books, dude.

But 'just the basics' is not a book. It's a brochure.

[Kerbart]

16 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

So... if something exists online, a book about it is obsolete?

Some people just like books, dude.

Agree. Not everyone likes to learn through video.

if the book does a proper job of explaining the game mechanics (and not being just a step-by-step recipe list) it wouldn't be obsolete that quickly. The me hanics of rendez vous, docking, launching, landing haven'5 changed that much. Maybe he exact throttle settings to be used, but that's about it.

[Sharpy]

On 21.09.2016 at 6:38 PM, ZooNamedGames said:

I was considering making a player's guide myself and to be honest, the desire to write one is killing me. I actually have two styles in mind and if I get ANY support whatsoever, I will create both and they will be glorious!

 

The problem with the guides for KSP is that by the time you're in the game deep enough to begin thinking about buying a book, you're simultaneously deep in enough that you don't need the book anymore.

The great swaths of knowledge that could be learned from a book, you had to struggle for, assembling piece by piece as you discovered them. Now the knowledge you are still lacking is far too fragmented - too many assorted, small tidbits - to assemble into a coherent book. A guide/manual will be 90% what you already know, 90% waste of time and possibly money. Not really worth the remaining 10%.

---

Personally, I'd like a different kind of guide.

A guide to rocket science through KSP.

A book that uses KSP as a tool of teaching, not as the subject being taught.

With a repository of realism mods.

You start a new stock Sandbox game at the beginning of Chapter 1. Starting with going to the orbit and Mun. per stock.

Chapter 2 has you install KER, and starts explaining the gory mathematics of what you see.

Then you add more mods. Communication. Deadly reentry. Real solar system. KOS. Life support. Ullage, restartability, fuel evaporation, multiple body gravitation, all that stuff. The book guiding you through the science of each, giving you overview of the real-world problems and liberties the game and mods take, letting you understand what you're doing, and how that compares to the real thing. Guiding you through tips and example craft. Giving you meaningful tasks, for which solutions you can find by applying the knowledge found so far.

Near the end, your game is modded into such a heavy hardcore career, as only few dare to try - and you know enough about rocket science you might think of applying to NASA.

 

Then comes the sequel: "In the near future..."

Edited September 23, 2016 by Sharpy

[Curveball Anders]

3 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Agree. Not everyone likes to learn through video.

Videos are for tubers.

But printed books doesn't cut it for software that changes faster than printing cycles.

Wiki's are the way, once you learn to keep an eye on 'date of last update'.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Curveball Anders

[ZooNamedGames]

50 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

The problem with the guides for KSP is that by the time you're in the game deep enough to begin thinking about buying a book, you're simultaneously deep in enough that you don't need the book anymore.

The great swaths of knowledge that could be learned from a book, you had to struggle for, assembling piece by piece as you discovered them. Now the knowledge you are still lacking is far too fragmented - too many assorted, small tidbits - to assemble into a coherent book. A guide/manual will be 90% what you already know, 90% waste of time and possibly money. Not really worth the remaining 10%.

---

Personally, I'd like a different kind of guide.

A guide to rocket science through KSP.

A book that uses KSP as a tool of teaching, not as the subject being taught.

With a repository of realism mods.

You start a new stock Sandbox game at the beginning of Chapter 1. Starting with going to the orbit and Mun. per stock.

Chapter 2 has you install KER, and starts explaining the gory mathematics of what you see.

Then you add more mods. Communication. Deadly reentry. Real solar system. KOS. Life support. Ullage, restartability, fuel evaporation, multiple body gravitation, all that stuff. The book guiding you through the science of each, giving you overview of the real-world problems and liberties the game and mods take, letting you understand what you're doing, and how that compares to the real thing. Guiding you through tips and example craft. Giving you meaningful tasks, for which solutions you can find by applying the knowledge found so far.

Near the end, your game is modded into such a heavy hardcore career, as only few dare to try - and you know enough about rocket science you might think of applying to NASA.

 

Then comes the sequel: "In the near future..."

That depends, some would want one to hold their hand but that's down to preference ultimately.

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, Curveball Anders said:

Videos are for tubers.

But printed books doesn't cut it for software that changes faster than printing cycles.

That depends on how the book is written, and what topics are covered.

The laws of physics don't changed and most of the KSP mecahnics are based on that.

You can explain the basics of building a rocket, putting it into orbit, docking it with another ship and transferring to Duna in a book based on 1.0 and it would still be relevant today, as long as it's written with a "we expect you to be a bit flexible about the details" attitude.

Of course it will never be as up to date as an updated wiki *cough*, but as a book buyer you don't expect that. As long as the book is written with a bit of flexibility in mind.

 

[GeneCash]

FYI, the Bate's "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" that's paired with it in "Frequently Bought Together" is absolute crap.

The only space book I have actually thrown in the trash.

[Sharpy]

1 hour ago, ZooNamedGames said:

That depends, some would want one to hold their hand but that's down to preference ultimately.

Oh, but by the time you realize "I really wish there was a whole BOOK to hold my hand! ...wait, maybe there is?" you're so far in the book won't cut it!

37 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

You can explain the basics of building a rocket, putting it into orbit, docking it with another ship and transferring to Duna in a book based on 1.0 and it would still be relevant today, as long as it's written with a "we expect you to be a bit flexible about the details" attitude.

Who would be the target audience - the customers to buy this book?

I sure as heck know I don't need a book on all this. I know all that stuff, and would gain absolutely nothing from the purchase.

And a total noob to KSP - a gamer who's finished a thousand games without need for a book - at which point would he decide 'damn, space is hard, I'd better buy the book'?

[ZooNamedGames]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 1:29 PM, Alshain said:

Even the basic can be obsoleted.  I can just imagine a line in the book that says "You need a heat shield so click on the Aerodynamics tab...." - already wrong.

Not everyone wants to dive in head first. Some would like a helping hand. Can you prove as a scientific certainty that all KSP players just dive in and play with no background with it or engineering whatsoever? I can already add to the list against your statement by saying that I did research myself prior to buying KSP. I saw how the game operated and had a decent background in engineering.

[Alshain]

24 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Not everyone wants to dive in head first. Some would like a helping hand. Can you prove as a scientific certainty that all KSP players just dive in and play with no background with it or engineering whatsoever? I can already add to the list against your statement by saying that I did research myself prior to buying KSP. I saw how the game operated and had a decent background in engineering.

I made nor implied any such statement in what you quoted or anywhere else.  I don't attack strawman arguments, I just point them out.

[ZooNamedGames]

2 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I made nor implied any such statement in what you quoted or anywhere else.  I don't attack strawman arguments, I just point them out.

Oops, wrong quote. Windows Edge (Windows 10 Internet Explorer) has been giving me issues since it's recent update. My apologies.

Meant to quote @Sharpy.

[Alshain]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Oops, wrong quote. Windows Edge (Windows 10 Internet Explorer) has been giving me issues since it's recent update. My apologies.

Meant to quote @Sharpy.

Oh, lol.  I thought it was really strange, it wasn't even close to what I said.

[Sharpy]

54 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Not everyone wants to dive in head first. Some would like a helping hand. Can you prove as a scientific certainty that all KSP players just dive in and play with no background with it or engineering whatsoever? I can already add to the list against your statement by saying that I did research myself prior to buying KSP. I saw how the game operated and had a decent background in engineering.

Oh, I never claimed 'none'. Can you say the number is sufficient to make the book economically viable though? Can you say it with certainty sufficient to invest money into the publication?

Besides, I didn't dive head first either. I played through the tutorials and browsed the forum, and watched some intro videos...

I realize the book has some advantages above these. But it has some serious disadvantages too. Getting obsolete is a very small one comparing to "paid", "snailmail/bookstore", "no search box", "can't request more details or explanation" and not least "buying a cat in a bag" - since I'd be able to judge if it's worth the money only after the fact.

I'm not saying this is a terrible idea. I don't mind such a book being published, and if you WANT to publish it, I won't stand in your way. But most authors assume at the very least return on investment, enough copies sold to at least approach breaking even. I'm fairly sure in this case the sales profits won't approach the costs, by far.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Sharpy

[Pecan]

22 hours ago, LordFerret said:

I mentioned this over a year ago already (right here in these forums). Nobody paid it any mind then. Why pay any mind to it now?

 

Edit:

Found it (not over a year ago tho)...

You did, and I mentioned it, inter alia, when talking about an amazon/ebook version of mine.  As I said at the time this one has been postponed and postponed.  Can you remember if it was to be published by O'Reilley when you saw it?  @stibbons says it's always been with them but I thought it was being independently published when I saw it first, which is why I was suspicious of the repeated postponements.

 

[ZooNamedGames]

14 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

Oh, I never claimed 'none'. Can you say the number is sufficient to make the book economically viable though? Can you say it with certainty sufficient to invest money into the publication?

Besides, I didn't dive head first either. I played through the tutorials and browsed the forum, and watched some intro videos...

I realize the book has some advantages above these. But it has some serious disadvantages too. Getting obsolete is a very small one comparing to "paid", "snailmail/bookstore", "no search box", "can't request more details or explanation" and not least "buying a cat in a bag" - since I'd be able to judge if it's worth the money only after the fact.

I'm not saying this is a terrible idea. I don't mind such a book being published, and if you WANT to publish it, I won't stand in your way. But most authors assume at the very least return on investment, enough copies sold to at least approach breaking even. I'm fairly sure in this case the sales profits won't approach the costs, by far.

I never said I'd sell it for profit.  The profit I want is people reading which is as simple as a forum post. 

[Kerbart]

23 hours ago, LordFerret said:

I mentioned this over a year ago already (right here in these forums). Nobody paid it any mind then. Why pay any mind to it now?

Whoops! With a publication date of October 25th I didn't think this was “old.” I actually looked around to see if anyone mentioned it—but I didn't go back all the way to May.

Apologies for hijacking your thread.

[Sharpy]

9 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I never said I'd sell it for profit.  The profit I want is people reading which is as simple as a forum post. 

Well, the rough estimate on self-publishing a paper book, print-on-demand, through a vanity publisher (getting a normal publisher to pick it up if you haven't made a name for yourself already is snowflake's chance in hell) is ~$5k. If you're willing to spend that kind of money with little hope of getting it back - be my guest.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, Sharpy said:

Well, the rough estimate on self-publishing a paper book, print-on-demand, through a vanity publisher (getting a normal publisher to pick it up if you haven't made a name for yourself already is snowflake's chance in hell) is ~$5k. If you're willing to spend that kind of money with little hope of getting it back - be my guest.

I could:

A: Do it myself and not use publisher quality printing and save some, and just mail it to interested parties, or

B: Have it as a printable document.

Oh no the costs are tremendous! How will I ever manage them!!

[Sharpy]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I could:A: Do it myself and not use publisher quality printing and save some, and just mail it to interested parties,

Then yes, a fanzine style release system might work. How do you plan to reach the audience?

Quote

B: Have it as a printable document.

Then it's not actually publishing a paper book. It's just publishing another online guide.

[ZooNamedGames]

4 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

Then yes, a fanzine style release system might work. How do you plan to reach the audience?

Then it's not actually publishing a paper book. It's just publishing another online guide.

Idk how to reach them outside of forum post. I've only been in this community for 3 years! I'm an engineer Jim, not a author.

It would be a more official guide.

[Kerbart]

You could actually use an on-demand publisher like Blurb or Lulu. You upload they PDF, and customers can buy their printed copy from there. You arrange your own publicity (wordpress, twitter, facebook, whatevs) and provide a link to the site where they can order the book. Publisher takes a cut, you get the rest. No investment (aside from creating the content) needed, but the price per copy is of course significant higher than what working through a publisher would yield. But: no investment required.

Some of the more elaborate mission reports published here could go down that route, if they wanted (legal issues aside, I guess).

[Xavven]

 

On 9/21/2016 at 9:09 PM, panzer1b said:

everything from the absolute basics like getting to orbit to advanced things like armor/weapons design can be found online on youtube or on the forum for FREE

 

^ This

I can't remember the last time I bought a guide book on anything when there's free* knowledge on the internet. I don't need additional objects cluttering up my house. A single tablet can access the internet, and itself store hundreds of books, and it's smaller than even a single book.

 

*other than the cost of buying/maintaining a computer and an internet connection

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I looked into the ebook thing a while back, Amazon has some really good free docs on how to publish ebooks. The technical aspect seems pretty simple and can be done with free software.

[Kerbart]

1 minute ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

I looked into the ebook thing a while back, Amazon has some really good free docs on how to publish ebooks. The technical aspect seems pretty simple and can be done with free software.

A friend of mine sells e-books. Instruction books about photography, which I gather would be remarkably similar to what a KSP instruction manual would pertain. He would not agree with this statement, although his main issue is to get it (in an automated system) right for any platform. Just PDF, or epub, or any other platform, but not multiple ones, would likely be easier. From experience, "pretty easy" will get you 95% of what you want and the remaining 5% turn out to be pure agony. But that's nothing new.

And against a pre-emptive “maybe he's not that good at technology”: he's a retired NASA engineer (the kind that built a James-Bond style phone into the heel if his shoe in high school, in a time where touch-tone dialing was still the cutting edge of technology).

[Sandworm]

Note the careful avoidance of Squad's IP.   It's does not use the phrase "kerbal space program", "KSP" or any variation of 'Monkey Squad'.  The cover art qualifies as fair use.  I'm not sure that Squad has trademark over the creature.  They do own 'kerbal' imho but I don't think they have registered that mark yet.  So this looks to be a totally unauthorized manual skirting the edges of legality.  That can be ok, but the fact it doesn't declare itself as such is a red flag.  It might be great.  Or it might be junk.  Either way, it is definitely not the sort of thing anyone should buy before seeing reviews.

 

And we can take a guess at the target market here.  They aren't going after KSP players.  This is a pre-christmas release.  They are targeting parents and grandparents of kids that play KSP.  Big red flag number two.  And it is in paperback only, no digital version.  That means if you want it under the tree at christmas you will probably have to pre-order it before any actual reviews can be published.  Red flag number three.  There are more and redder flags, but the horse is dead.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Sandworm